Do any trainers not cheat?

Revolution · #1 10-26-2006, 07:48 PM

When is somebody going to clean this sport up.

The Delaware Thoroughbred Racing Commission on Tuesday upheld a 30-day suspension and $1,000 fine against Scott Lake, the nation's leading trainer, after one of his horses was found to have the drug clenbuterol in its system.

After winning the fifth race at Delaware Park on June 7, the Lake-trained Secret Run tested positive in urine and blood samples for clenbuterol, a drug used to open the bronchial passages. Commission rules allow the drug to be used but it cannot be in a horse's system on race day.

It is nice to know if you didn't bet on his horse in that race the guy basically stole from you. How is this guy still allowed to train horses?

kgar311 · #2 10-26-2006, 08:24 PM

do you know what used to open up my horses branchial passages before a race? Vicks!

#3 10-26-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

When is somebody going to clean this sport up.

The Delaware Thoroughbred Racing Commission on Tuesday upheld a 30-day suspension and $1,000 fine against Scott Lake, the nation's leading trainer, after one of his horses was found to have the drug clenbuterol in its system.

After winning the fifth race at Delaware Park on June 7, the Lake-trained Secret Run tested positive in urine and blood samples for clenbuterol, a drug used to open the bronchial passages. Commission rules allow the drug to be used but it cannot be in a horse's system on race day.

It is nice to know if you didn't bet on his horse in that race the guy basically stole from you. How is this guy still allowed to train horses?

Do you think that everyone who has a clenbuterol positive should be barred? Yes or no. And I want you to think about this answer before you give it.

The Bid · #4 10-26-2006, 09:36 PM

Its very easy to give an overage of Clen, trainers miss cut dates, trainers miss a lot of things. Trainers dont want to pay good help, they would rather have a bunch of skunks running around f'ing everything up. There is no excuse for a clen over, none. If you know the cut day it should never happen. However Mr.Lake is the king of Clen. We have taken horses off of him and had them crash days after we stopped clen. They wouldnt pick up the bit, they wouldnt even get into a gallop. They were flat as pancakes. Very sound, just flat. I think its just like human withdrawl from clen. When I used to be very into working out I would take clen as a cut cycle while reducing water. A few weeks after offing clen I would be exhausted, have horrible headaches, shake badly. It doesnt do all that to horses, but the crashing can be related. Lots of trainers use clen, I would say probably 90%I dont think anyone uses it to the extent Mr Lake does.

To answer the question there are a lot of trainers that dont cheat.

saucon17 · #5 10-26-2006, 09:45 PM

Just have to love the headline on the DRF website on this Lake positive

"Lake to appeal latest ban"

My Friend has claim off Lake and said the same thing that are flat and
seem to have withdrawl symptoms

paisjpq · #6 10-27-2006, 07:29 AM

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2000/229.pdf

pay particular attention to page 4...where the question of performance enhancement is addressed...
Don't get me wrong, I know some trainers use it the same way bodybuilders use it...but actual performance improvement in the horse has been disproven.

And if Scott Lake wants to claim that he was using this as legitimate treatment for mucus or other bronchial infection I will repeat what I have said before...if the horse needs to be on medication that horse should not be running.

Revolution · #7 10-27-2006, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Do you think that everyone who has a clenbuterol positive should be barred? Yes or no. And I want you to think about this answer before you give it.

Of course not. I thought you were Mr. I hate cheaters. Now you are defending the ones that get caught. Interesting. Did Dutrow ever get caught cheating? Just curious.

#8 10-27-2006, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paisjpq

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2000/229.pdf

pay particular attention to page 4...where the question of performance enhancement is addressed...
Don't get me wrong, I know some trainers use it the same way bodybuilders use it...but actual performance improvement in the horse has been disproven.

And if Scott Lake wants to claim that he was using this as legitimate treatment for mucus or other bronchial infection I will repeat what I have said before...if the horse needs to be on medication that horse should not be running.

Thats not realistic. And I'm still waiting for revolution to tell me if he thinks that any trainer with a clenbuterol postive should be banned for life.
One of his "buddies" that trains has a clen positive.

#9 10-27-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

Of course not. I thought you were Mr. I hate cheaters. Now you are defending the ones that get caught. Interesting. Did Dutrow ever get caught cheating? Just curious.

Define cheating princess. Your buddy in maryland has a clen postive as well.

paisjpq · #10 10-27-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Thats not realistic. And I'm still waiting for revolution to tell me if he thinks that any trainer with a clenbuterol postive should be banned for life.
One of his "buddies" that trains has a clen positive.

what's not realistic?
Not running a horse with a legitimate lung infection?
or not using a drug off-label in an attempt to enhance performance?

Revolution · #11 10-27-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Thats not realistic. And I'm still waiting for revolution to tell me if he thinks that any trainer with a clenbuterol postive should be banned for life.
One of his "buddies" that trains has a clen positive.

I think they should all be banned for life when they get their second positive.

Personally I think all drugs should be banned. Screw veterinarians, they are the ones that created this problem.

#12 10-27-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

I think they should all be banned for life when they get their second positive.

Personally I think all drugs should be banned. Screw veterinarians, they are the ones that created this problem.

Your buddy has 4 at least.

Revolution · #13 10-27-2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Your buddy has 4 at least.

I don't own any horses. I couldn't even afford to feed them for one day.

Who is my buddy?

You didn't answer the question about Dutrow. Did he ever get caught cheating?

It amazes me how you call a pitcher with pinetar a cheater, and that is more acceptable in that sport, but when your buddy gets caught cheating it is ok, because they all do it.

You are so full of it is isn't even funny. You are about as two faced as they come.

#14 10-27-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

I don't own any horses. I couldn't even afford to feed them for one day.

Who is my buddy?

You didn't answer the question about Dutrow. Did he ever get caught cheating?

It amazes me how you call a pitcher with pinetar a cheater, and that is more acceptable in that sport, but when your buddy gets caught cheating it is ok, because they all do it.

You are so full of it is isn't even funny. You are about as two faced as they come.

Kiss kiss princess. I think that one was intentional. You don't put an overage of pine tar on by accident. But you aren't real bright about anything anyway.

Revolution · #15 10-27-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Kiss kiss princess. I think that one was intentional. You don't put an overage of pine tar on by accident. But you aren't real bright about anything anyway.

You don't have positives by accident either. If you believe they do you are even dumber than I thought. Next you will tell me Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi didn't know what they are taking. You aren't that bright, but you can't use stupidity as an excuse for everything.

The trainers in horse racing all cheat. You know it too, but it is ok for them and not ok for baseball pitchers. Either you say it is part of the sport or you say they are all cheaters. You can't pick and choose, like you seem to do.

#16 10-27-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolution

You don't have positives by accident either. If you believe they do you are even dumber than I thought. Next you will tell me Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi didn't know what they are taking. You aren't that bright, but you can't use stupidity as an excuse for everything.

The trainers in horse racing all cheat. You know it too, but it is ok for them and not ok for baseball pitchers. Either you say it is part of the sport or you say they are all cheaters. You can't pick and choose, like you seem to do.

They are not all cheaters, despite your ignorant views.
You heading over to Aqueduct today to talk with the head honchos and call them crooks? Lemme know how that works out for you.

Revolution · #17 10-27-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

They are not all cheaters, despite your ignorant views.
You heading over to Aqueduct today to talk with the head honchos and call them crooks? Lemme know how that works out for you.

Mr. Two Face, why can't you answer why it is ok for Dutrow to cheat but not Kenny Rogers. Dutrow was caught and suspended. Kenny Rogers cheated and wasn't even technically caught. But Rogers is a cheater and Dutrow just made a mistake. Hilarious. Either you are really stupid or you are two faced, and while you clearly aren't that bright, you aren't that stupid.

#18 10-27-2006, 08:06 AM

No--they all don't cheat, and cheating varies by degrees.

I just assume they all cheat.
That way, I will only be wrong about a few of them.

I hope the Arabs get busted big-time at CD.
Let's dq them from that big purse money!!

The Bid · #19 10-27-2006, 08:48 AM

PAIS

Im not including Clen in commonly used drugs to enhance equine performance. Winstrol, Trenbolone, Deca, Aflutop, Equipoise, Cancer Drugs, Lasix, those are all drugs we can use to improve performance. I think used in conjunction with these drugs, Clen can be useful. The thing Lake does that others dont is he never offs the clen. They are continually on a cycle, most trianers will go on for a while then remove the horse after hes over his lung infection. Lake continues use until he absolutely has to remove them, when you do that you open the window for a positive.

Then cheaper trainers will claim off Lake, not continue is training regimen, and ultimately the horse flops.

ELA · #20 10-27-2006, 09:32 AM

I have been in the horse business for about 20 years. I own horses and just for the record so people don't start to throw stones (seems to be a lot of that going on around here, LOL), I have had and currently have a horse with Scott Lake. I am not a vet. Unless you are one, giving opinions on the medicinal aspects of these discussions is perhaps a waste of time because the opinion is not truly a qualified one.

Also, for the record, I do not think a trainer should be banned for life after a first, second or third clenbuterol. I have said that before I knew and had a horse with Scott Lake and I say the same thing after.

I don't want to get into the "who is cheating" and "who is not" routine. There is far too much hypocrisy there. If a horse is stepping foot onto the track for a race, and he/she is racing 100% on hay, grain and water -- unfortunately that horse is at a comepititive disadvantage. We may not like it but that is the truth.

I don't view clenbuterol as one of these designer or exotic drugs. It has its place on the backstretch. It is medicinal, when precribed and used in the right places -- at least I think it is or can be. However, its not allowed on race day or X amount of days out. Period. I think unifom medication rules are needed and with something like clenbuterol, there needs to be a graduated scale.

How about a first offense of a clenbuterol positive there should be a fine ($X). Second offense, days, and five times $X in fines. Third offense, major days and ten times the original fine. But there are problems here as well. There are gray areas here -- contamination, split samples not agreeing, etc. Sabotage, mistakes, etc. There are scale questions as well. The trainers responsibility rule applies. One trainer has 200 horses and has 2000 starts, another trainer has 4 horses and races 30 or 40 starts. I don't know what the answer is.

Eric