Graded Stakes Downgrades

[welltakethat]

Couldn't find my post re graded stakes downgrades anywhere, perhaps it was posted in the wrong thread grouping, so wanted to repost my thoughts here and get others opinion. I think its a good topic to discuss on ATR, especially with key members of the breeding community potentially, maybe post saratoga. I feel there are way too many graded stakes races and as such too many horses underserving of grade 1 type are acquiring it for their catalogue page. We have to recognize the same quality of horse is not available to support all these graded stakes and make some downgrades. The ruffian stakes, as have been many a female stake at nyra tracks over the last few years, drew a field hardly deserving of a grade 1 label. Especially given the Delcap is a grade 2.

It, in a way, goes along with what Bobby Flay was discussing, in terms of not having a goal to build toward (which was a good interview by the way Steve). If we had true select grade 1 races, where money and prestige were commensurate, we would have the best horses show up for these races 5-7 times a year which gets to the goals or series type of product he discussed. It doesn't have to be one climatic event, just more selective in what we consider and incentify as a grade 1. Perhaps we would not get a field like the one in the Ruffian stakes, which is borderline grade 2 even to me, if we had this sort of select grade 1 series. And if we stagger these events in terms of division and timing the product becomes much more promotable in a television culture looking for prime type events.

Sorry to ramble, just wanted to repost my thoughts since they seemed to have gotten removed and see what others think on the topic. The field draws on some of the historic races are winding up being more of a let down than an excitement driver.

Also, Steve, would it be possible for you to publish some of your rolling pk3 constructions you have been quoting, prerace, so those of us following your plays and handicapping ideas can try to see where your head is at going into a sequence and get to some of these bingos. Its tough going 4x4x4 on a rolling basis for a somewhat smaller bankroll so wanted to see if thats how you were hitting them or if you had a way to pair down and which races you did go skinnier on.

[tjfrab]

Great point on the Ruffian....But you say barely a Grade 2?? That Ruffian doesn't even deserve a grading. Not sure whether this race or the Phipps in June was the bigger disaster. Amazing that the listed stakes horse trained by Jones (who should have stayed retired) is a 2-1 favorite in a grade 1 at the Spa. If the horsemen aren't going to support the graded stakes program, then these races should be downgraded. Understood the horses just aren't out there to fill all these races....But then the grade 1 status needs to be more dynamic and adjusted when these races draw so terribly.

[Kasept]

The post was moved to the Ruffian thread which seemed appropriate. If you click on your name or go to your profile page, you'll see the "Find all post by user" or "Find all threads started by user" links. You'll 'find' your 'lost' post or thread rather easily.

Of course there are too many graded stakes. Happened to have TOBA's Reynolds Bell on the TV show today, and discussed where the AGSC committee believes the stakes schedule can be improved/streamlined. There is a notion to try combining or alternating certain stakes in geographic proximity that have identical or similar conditions and are run around the same time of year. The breeders want stakes intact to create sires. There's not much mystery as to why the stakes situation is the way it is.

As for P3's, my own budget for them is typically $12-$24, as I'm generally playing 1x3x4's, 1x4x5's, 2x3x4's etc.. You can get a blueprint for ones to build off the P4 suggestions, but generally the top 2 tabs are a good starting point, and you can then add horses you like to the play.

[welltakethat]

Thanks Steve. I actually like the rotational idea you noted amongst similar conditioned races in the same region but that's likely not going to happen as you pointed out because of the breeders want as many possibilities to acquire 'easy' black type, especially grade 1.

The Ruffian was a prime example. Here's a claiming horse that was wobbling coming home and she's now got that grade 1 route win on her catalogue page (sneaky good ride by castellano given weak field to play come and get me). Arguably one of the worst grade 1 winners recently as evinced by being 18-1 in that light field. If delaware and saratoga went into a rotation that could have made for a full field that combined the Delcap and Ruffian fields, plus maybe some others if opportunities for type were fewer and farther between. I hope the graded stakes committee looks as this race hard for it retaining its ranking.

[Cannon Shell]

The breeders want more graded stakes for broodmare pedigree builders far more than stallions. There are thousands of stakes placed/winning mares and their daughters and sisters in service and 90% (at least) of stallions fail. If a colt or gelding were to win a grade 3 it would usually be more impactful to the owners of the dam and the colt/geldings female relatives as opposed to being a stallion resume builder.

Let's not forget that a select few train most of the legitimate graded stakes horses and they "campaign" them to try to build resumes which doesn't always lead to full or even representative fields. As long as the few control the so much of the talent fields will continue to be less than stellar.

[welltakethat]

Agreed Chuck. The concentration of the best animals in few hands, especially when many of those hands are tainted with multiple drug positives, is troubling for the sport long term.

The older filly sprint stake tomorrow is another prime example. If I were NYRA i may just cancel some of these stakes and save some face. I mean it's embarrassing that this is all they can draw to the banner meet of the year, especially with people being in town for upcoming sales. I'd be embarrassed to have that honorable miss carded at all for 150k, let alone as a grade 2. There should be a minimum entrant requirement to retain gradings and to be printable on a catalog page. Maybe some of these guys would run their horses then.