Breeders' Cup; some thoughts

[Hwjb]

I can't profess to know a great deal about the European horses that ran in the Breeders' Cup, let alone the Americans but, having watched the races, some things stand out:

Breeders' Cup Marathon...aside from the fact that this is arguably the most preposterously named race ever conceived (BC 2m4f race, anyone?), the Europeans were always likely to have the better horses, the fact that a horse who essentially is a handicapper wound up winning it devalues the race and the Breeders' Cup as a whole. A poor recruit to the Breeders' Cup franchise.

Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint...again a nothing of a race. Relatively speaking these were poor horses, the best of them, Fleeting Spirit, doesn't stay what is laughingly called a Sprint (6.5f???...at least she wasn't asked to see out the 7f that is the fillies and mares version...begs the question of whether the only way they can justify having three sprint races over the two days is by having them over distances which aren't sprints). Diabolical, a horse who this season has been shown up in Group 2 company, and arsed in Group 1 company, shaped like the best horse on the day, racing a bit too close to a ludicrous gallop. The winner, whose name I can't remember, was flattered.

Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile....another race which detracts from the event as a whole, providing horses with easier options. The horse with the stand0out form, Well Armed, shaped as if amiss, his run too bad to be true. The winner, Albertus Maximus, probably hasn't needed to run above 123 or so to beat an ordinary field (given the Group 1 status).

Breeders' Cup Mile...a better race than the preceding event, and the winner was better than the winning margin, too, absolutely tanking over the rest of the field turning in, when not getting a run, sprinting clear when the gap arrived; the runner-up sets a solid standard and the French filly rates an above-average winner of the race, at the same time highlighting the fact that Zarkava, who essentially wanked over her in the French Guineas, is (or was) and exceptional filly. US Ranger is a dog of the highest order.

Breeders' Cup Juvenile...Midshipman is a horse I associate with low-grade races at Wolverhampton, but the American version is clearly a good deal more classy. That said, the fact that he's beaten Sirenia runner-up Square Eddie doesn't fill me with confidence that this was a stellar renewal, in fact it almost certainly wasn't, the horse with the best form, Bushranger, never likely to be suited by this sort of trip (connections, with a view to breeding, evidently running him more in hope than expectation), and not running his race.

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf...Donativum had his claims well advertised by Crowded House earlier in the day and, whilst not one of the best, anyone who didn't back him needs shooting! Haha! Westphalia didn't do anything wrong yet still looked like an absolute hound whilst doing it.

Breeders' Cup Sprint...A fine training performance to get Midnight Lute, who has evidently had problems, back to win the race again. He looked a cut above last year and showed here that he's the best sprinter in the world (allowing for the fact that the Aussies will probably come up with something to show me wrong), beating the gallant Fatal Bullet with a bit to spare. The "pro-ride" surface did seem well suited to closers, but I don't think that any of those that raced close up had any excuse other than going a mite too fast.

Breeders' Cup Turf...Conduit always looked to have more pace than your average St Leger winner and he proved as much under the best jockey in the world, Ryan Moore giving him a faultless ride. At the same time the jockeys on Better Talk Now and Grand Couturier deserve banning for a length of time, their efforts verging on non-trying, giving the respective horses no chance (I appreciate the fact that the latter may have been unsuited by the ground, but that doesn't excuse a shockingly misjugded ride). Query re Red Rock Canyon: surely you shouln't be allowed to run a pacemaker in a supposed World Chamionship race?

Breeders' Cup Classic...if the synthetic surface is a true leveller then they shouldn't have races on the turf, and I only say that having backed Raven's Pass to win the Mile several months ago! This is the horse who looked a superstar at the back-end of last season and has belatedly proved as much, first when beating Henrythenavigator at Ascot and, more so, here, showing himself to be the best Flat horse in the world. Henrythenavigator ran well but the second half of 2008 has emphasised the fact that he's simply not as good as the winner for all early-season impressions, whilst Curlin had every chance, ran his race, simply not as good as at this time last year/in Dubai in March, the different surface certainly no excuse, beaten by better horses. Understandable that connections of Casino Drive would want to make it a test, but he's clearly no front runner.

[Pedigree Ann]

Marathon - give it a couple of years before you condemn the Marathon. The best US runner at the distance - Delosvientos - was not there because his owner's Seventh-Day Adventist beliefs wouldn't let him run it on a Saturday. Another major contender, Evening Attire, was injured and retired. EA is a 10yo and if this race had come along a few years back, you would have seen something. We haven't had the structure of races to identify and promote 12f dirt horses since the 1960s; its a lot to expect us to find anything world-beating right off the bat.

Yes, we in the US consider anything up to 7f a sprint, even up to 8f if it is around one turn. But before now, we hadn't had any category for milers; you were a sprinter, or you ran in 9f-10f races with the big boys. Choosing Santa Anita for the debut of the turf sprint was a bad choice; its unique configuration gives a huge advantage to horses with a race over the course.

The Main Track Mile was a bad idea. The sprint at 6f was a bad idea that has changed the breed for the worse. If they want a race for horses who can't manage the classic, they should have a single one at the longest one-turn distance the track can manage up to 8f, be it 6.5f, 7f, or 7.5f. A consolation prize.

Square Eddie has a North American pedigree so it may just be that he appreciates going around two turns rather than one or none. (He is inbred to the Champion Broodmare Smartaire, a mare from Fred Hooper's Alabama operation.) I told everybody I could that 'Danetime over an Efisio mare' did not translate into an 8.5f winner, but not enough listened.

They use pacemakers in the Arc, the KGQE, the various Derbies, why not in the Breeders' Cup? And this is no 'World Championships'. Northern Hemisphere, maybe, but Euro participation is spotty (some top ones show up, but not most don't) and Japanese is sporadic (a horse every couple of years). And no current Southern Hemisphere animals will ever take part, since the BC conflicts with their spring classic season; only animals that have been sold overseas show up. Dubai is the closest to a 'World' meeting.

Like many US horses who have raced there, Curlin hasn't seemed as good a horse since he came back from Dubai. It is an odd phenomenon, but that trip seems to take a lot out of horses who run particularly well there.

[Danzig]

i didn't know there were seventh day adventist horses.

but i do think it's not to be taken seriously when someone says a race should be discarded because euros didn't win.

as for curlin and dubai, he was made to look very good by who he beat. he wasn't particularly good then, or bad now.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Marathon - give it a couple of years before you condemn the Marathon. The best US runner at the distance - Delosvientos - was not there because his owner's Seventh-Day Adventist beliefs wouldn't let him run it on a Saturday. Another major contender, Evening Attire, was injured and retired. EA is a 10yo and if this race had come along a few years back, you would have seen something. We haven't had the structure of races to identify and promote 12f dirt horses since the 1960s; its a lot to expect us to find anything world-beating right off the bat.

Yes, we in the US consider anything up to 7f a sprint, even up to 8f if it is around one turn. But before now, we hadn't had any category for milers; you were a sprinter, or you ran in 9f-10f races with the big boys. Choosing Santa Anita for the debut of the turf sprint was a bad choice; its unique configuration gives a huge advantage to horses with a race over the course.

The Main Track Mile was a bad idea. The sprint at 6f was a bad idea that has changed the breed for the worse. If they want a race for horses who can't manage the classic, they should have a single one at the longest one-turn distance the track can manage up to 8f, be it 6.5f, 7f, or 7.5f. A consolation prize.

Square Eddie has a North American pedigree so it may just be that he appreciates going around two turns rather than one or none. (He is inbred to the Champion Broodmare Smartaire, a mare from Fred Hooper's Alabama operation.) I told everybody I could that 'Danetime over an Efisio mare' did not translate into an 8.5f winner, but not enough listened.

They use pacemakers in the Arc, the KGQE, the various Derbies, why not in the Breeders' Cup? And this is no 'World Championships'. Northern Hemisphere, maybe, but Euro participation is spotty (some top ones show up, but not most don't) and Japanese is sporadic (a horse every couple of years). And no current Southern Hemisphere animals will ever take part, since the BC conflicts with their spring classic season; only animals that have been sold overseas show up. Dubai is the closest to a 'World' meeting.

Like many US horses who have raced there, Curlin hasn't seemed as good a horse since he came back from Dubai. It is an odd phenomenon, but that trip seems to take a lot out of horses who run particularly well there.

I'll take your points in turn:

I will give the Marathon a few years, but boy does the standard need to improve. Muhannak, a horse who's previous best rating with us was 103 (on an artificial surface), a Breeders' Cup winner? That's verging on the ludicrous. The fact that he's won lends the race a stigma that it will do well to overcome.

What's wrong with a) intermediary distances and b) a sprint over a straight course?

I agree, a dirt mile offers little.

I don't think you can say that Square Eddie was beaten for stamina. He clearly ran his best race, improving for the step up in trip. The fact that I believe him to be second rate is by the by!

If this is no 'World Championships', why market it as such? Your point re pacemakers is fair; I was being churlish.

European horses don't tend to suffer this 'Dubai bounce syndrome'. Is it not more likely the case that the horse is simply regressive?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

I was being churlish.

European horses don't tend to suffer this 'Dubai bounce syndrome'. Is it not more likely the case that the horse is simply regressive?

We don't use this f'n "churlish" adjective in this country. If "churl" is the noun, then f that too. I'm sure "churlishly" is the adverb to finish off the set. F them all.


Curlin hasn't been as good since coming home from Dubai. I don't care if it's dirt, turf, or synthetic. It showed up the most yesterday, because he faced a tougher field than the Wanderin-Boy types. He worked fine on the Pro-Ride. He made a decent move on it. It was a wide move, but that was the ideal part of the track. I don't know why he isn't as good. I don't know if it was the trip to Dubai, or not.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

I can't profess to know a great deal about the European horses that ran in the Breeders' Cup, let alone the Americans but, having watched the races, some things stand out:

Breeders' Cup Marathon...aside from the fact that this is arguably the most preposterously named race ever conceived (BC 2m4f race, anyone?), the Europeans were always likely to have the better horses, the fact that a horse who essentially is a handicapper wound up winning it devalues the race and the Breeders' Cup as a whole. A poor recruit to the Breeders' Cup franchise.

Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint...again a nothing of a race. Relatively speaking these were poor horses, the best of them, Fleeting Spirit, doesn't stay what is laughingly called a Sprint (6.5f???...at least she wasn't asked to see out the 7f that is the fillies and mares version...begs the question of whether the only way they can justify having three sprint races over the two days is by having them over distances which aren't sprints). Diabolical, a horse who this season has been shown up in Group 2 company, and arsed in Group 1 company, shaped like the best horse on the day, racing a bit too close to a ludicrous gallop. The winner, whose name I can't remember, was flattered.

Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile....another race which detracts from the event as a whole, providing horses with easier options. The horse with the stand0out form, Well Armed, shaped as if amiss, his run too bad to be true. The winner, Albertus Maximus, probably hasn't needed to run above 123 or so to beat an ordinary field (given the Group 1 status).

Breeders' Cup Mile...a better race than the preceding event, and the winner was better than the winning margin, too, absolutely tanking over the rest of the field turning in, when not getting a run, sprinting clear when the gap arrived; the runner-up sets a solid standard and the French filly rates an above-average winner of the race, at the same time highlighting the fact that Zarkava, who essentially wanked over her in the French Guineas, is (or was) and exceptional filly. US Ranger is a dog of the highest order.

Breeders' Cup Juvenile...Midshipman is a horse I associate with low-grade races at Wolverhampton, but the American version is clearly a good deal more classy. That said, the fact that he's beaten Sirenia runner-up Square Eddie doesn't fill me with confidence that this was a stellar renewal, in fact it almost certainly wasn't, the horse with the best form, Bushranger, never likely to be suited by this sort of trip (connections, with a view to breeding, evidently running him more in hope than expectation), and not running his race.

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf...Donativum had his claims well advertised by Crowded House earlier in the day and, whilst not one of the best, anyone who didn't back him needs shooting! Haha! Westphalia didn't do anything wrong yet still looked like an absolute hound whilst doing it.

Breeders' Cup Sprint...A fine training performance to get Midnight Lute, who has evidently had problems, back to win the race again. He looked a cut above last year and showed here that he's the best sprinter in the world (allowing for the fact that the Aussies will probably come up with something to show me wrong), beating the gallant Fatal Bullet with a bit to spare. The "pro-ride" surface did seem well suited to closers, but I don't think that any of those that raced close up had any excuse other than going a mite too fast.

Breeders' Cup Turf...Conduit always looked to have more pace than your average St Leger winner and he proved as much under the best jockey in the world, Ryan Moore giving him a faultless ride. At the same time the jockeys on Better Talk Now and Grand Couturier deserve banning for a length of time, their efforts verging on non-trying, giving the respective horses no chance (I appreciate the fact that the latter may have been unsuited by the ground, but that doesn't excuse a shockingly misjugded ride). Query re Red Rock Canyon: surely you shouln't be allowed to run a pacemaker in a supposed World Chamionship race?

Breeders' Cup Classic...if the synthetic surface is a true leveller then they shouldn't have races on the turf, and I only say that having backed Raven's Pass to win the Mile several months ago! This is the horse who looked a superstar at the back-end of last season and has belatedly proved as much, first when beating Henrythenavigator at Ascot and, more so, here, showing himself to be the best Flat horse in the world. Henrythenavigator ran well but the second half of 2008 has emphasised the fact that he's simply not as good as the winner for all early-season impressions, whilst Curlin had every chance, ran his race, simply not as good as at this time last year/in Dubai in March, the different surface certainly no excuse, beaten by better horses. Understandable that connections of Casino Drive would want to make it a test, but he's clearly no front runner.

Thanks for the European view. When you guys bother to have such an event we will pick your event apart for you.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

We don't use this f'n "churlish" adjective in this country. If "churl" is the noun, then f that too. I'm sure "churlishly" is the adverb to finish off the set. F them all.


Curlin hasn't been as good since coming home from Dubai. I don't care if it's dirt, turf, or synthetic. It showed up the most yesterday, because he faced a tougher field than the Wanderin-Boy types. He worked fine on the Pro-Ride. He made a decent move on it. It was a wide move, but that was the ideal part of the track. I don't know why he isn't as good. I don't know if it was the trip to Dubai, or not.

I'm not sure what you're attempting to say. You sound tipsy.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Thanks for the European view. When you guys bother to have such an event we will pick your event apart for you.

We do. Thanks for noticing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

We do. Thanks for noticing.

Do you? I guess the rest of us must have missed it...

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you? I guess the rest of us must have missed it...

Arc, Grand Criterium, Marcel Boussac, Abbaye, Opera, Prix de la Foret, Cadran, Dollar, Daniel Wildenstein, all in two day's racing. Feel free to pick it apart.

[arulus]

Lol, I'm sensing there are some Americans in this thread who got wallet boo-boo's yesterday because of European winners and are still nursing some tantrums because of it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

Arc, Grand Criterium, Marcel Boussac, Abbaye, Opera, Prix de la Foret, Cadran, Dollar, Daniel Wildenstein, all in two day's racing. Feel free to pick it apart.

which one is the dirt mile?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Hwjb

Arc, Grand Criterium, Marcel Boussac, Abbaye, Opera, Prix de la Foret, Cadran, Dollar, Daniel Wildenstein, all in two day's racing. Feel free to pick it apart.

Nice, a guy from England using French racing as his defense. How many of these races have a million dollar purse let alone $25 million over the two days?
Not to mention that swamp that they run over.

[Hwjb]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Nice, a guy from England using French racing as his defense. How many of these races have a million dollar purse let alone $25 million over the two days?
Not to mention that swamp that they run over.

Being English I'm unable to appreciate the merits of a French meeting, is that what you mean? That's sound logic.
Historical cache vs multi-million purses? You'd have Dubai World Cup day as the best meeting of the year I assume?
How did the track go down at Monmouth last year? At least with this turf, you don't have to go replacing and relaying it all the time.

Personally I thought the grass sprint was the best addition.

Chunk the remaining.
Also get rid of the juvy's.

ahhh maybe keep the "dirt" mile and make the classic 1.5 miles.
If the three year olds have the Belmont stakes after having to
endure the first two legs...

And keep the Euros coming over. It makes for a better event.
Its good for them to take our money and leave.
I likes the competition.

My contribution.
More Euros that come over and beat our butts the more
notice the event gets. And personally I have always liked
the one day event.

[magic_idol]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Personally I thought the grass sprint was the best addition.

Chunk the remaining.
Also get rid of the juvy's.

ahhh maybe keep the "dirt" mile and make the classic 1.5 miles.
If the three year olds have the Belmont stakes after having to
endure the first two legs...

And keep the Euros coming over. It makes for a better event.
Its good for them to take our money and leave.
I likes the competition.

My contribution.
More Euros that come over and beat our butts the more
notice the event gets. And personally I have always liked
the one day event.

Change when the event is held make it the best horses from around the world unfortunately it is held right in the middle of our major event so i doubt you will ever see the best of downunder horses there

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by arulus

Lol, I'm sensing there are some Americans in this thread who got wallet boo-boo's yesterday because of European winners and are still nursing some tantrums because of it.

I'm not thrilled that they slowed up the turf course just so the Euros could get up in time, but they want you back next year. My main race was the sprint.I don't think you had a Euro in there. Just don't like words like "churlish."

Originally Posted by magic_idol

Change when the event is held make it the best horses from around the world unfortunately it is held right in the middle of our major event so i doubt you will ever see the best of downunder horses there

Sort of bad timing here also as football is in full swing, baseball WS going...
Let us get together and work on a better time and submit our recomendation so that it can be...


crinkle


*trash*

[magic_idol]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I'm not thrilled that they slowed up the turf course just so the Euros could get up in time, but they want you back next year. My main race was the sprint.I don't think you had a Euro in there. Just don't like words like "churlish."

Euros cant breed sprinters never have never will

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by magic_idol

Euros cant breed sprinters never have never will

Which doesn't really matter as the two Euro's that ran 1-2 in the Classic......were both Kentucky breds.