Scorpius' breakdown at KEE

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

any one hear if he made it..

[wac]

Sorry hooves he was put down. Damn what is going on over there at Keen??? I was there on the big Sat. and it was very a very odd day with teuf.getting hurt i felt really bad and the horse in the paddock thank the good Lord i didnt see that really bad day and now this. Very odd for the track b/c they had such good luck and these are good horses getting hurt. Just dont get it and im on record as saying that it turns my stomach when this happens b/c i have to imagine what the owners/trainers feel like when this happens . very sad for all involved.

[sumitas]

I too am saddened. My condolences to all. I was hoping no more breakdowns on the AW track for the meet.

[Nascar1966]

Keeneland is having a rough meet with this AWT. I saw a video of this unfortunate incident, looks like he took a bad step. I had this horse for my pick in the race of the day contest also.

[The Bid]

Its not just the breakdowns, the horses are really not accepting the kickback which has been an issue from the start. They are fanned 7-10 wide to avoid kickback, anything in behind the kickback will cock its head and back out of the running. Its just not real horseracing.

[Riot]

Bid, so you think the breakdowns are being caused by the track? Why?

Its not just the breakdowns, the horses are really not accepting the kickback, which has been an issue from the start. They are fanned 7-10 wide to avoid kickback, anything in behind the kickback will cock its head and back out of the running.

??? What track are you talking about?

[The Bid]

You dont think Keeneland has kickback? Watch the races yesterday, if you arent out in the middle the horses back up when the real running starts due to extreme kickback. Thats why they are fanned out 7-10 wide.

Do I think the track is causing breakdowns. I dont think its any better than a traditional good dirt track. You know where I stand on the carpet and Nikes

[Riot]

No, I haven't noticed what you've seen regarding kickback causing fanning out or stoppage so far at the Kee meet at all. I haven't seen kickback that has become noticable to me. Nor have I seen horses coming back with the track on the front of their legs, chest, or faces. I see horses that tire, and jocks that are willing to get off the rail and go down the center of the track. I've been there three days this meet. Anybody else have any comments from their observations?

I know you don't like the poly, but I don't know why you think Polytrack specifically causes breakdowns. We know there have been less breakdowns on synthetic surfaces than on the old dirt at the tracks that have installed it for training and racing.

[VOL JACK]

Any track's brass that would watch a full meet from arlington or Keeneland, then watch Belmont and Churchill Downs and still want to install Polyshit are fools.

The argument that it's safer than dirt has been tossed. I've seen more breakdowns at Keeneland than at Belmont. These are not 5k claimers that are breaking down.

[The Bid]

Riot

Watch the card today and tell me if you think the cocking of the heads is a natural position for a horse straightening up for a drive. These horses are being fanned out deep because they WILL NOT run thorugh the kickback which is evident to anybody watching the races.

I would dispute anyone saying its a superior surface, its simply not. You have tracks in cal closing because they cant hold water, re-oiling of Turfway, cancellations at TWP because its frozen, breakdowns at Keeneland. They slowed Del Mar to a crawl because they were scared to tinker with the surface as it would change composition leading to more issues. Maybe its just me, but whats wrong with a traditional dirt surface like Saratogas training track.

Well if it's not the issues of kickback, slip and sliding, etc with synthetic it is the SoCal jockeys putting on a daily display of horrific riding that is happening because...

A) They really are that retarded
B) Race fixing

Yet there is no discussion due to fear of getting raked over the coals for even suggesting such things happen in the sport.

[The Bid]

Ive had two very bad stiffings at Turf paradise in the last 5 days. 2 of the worst Ive ever seen. Guys should be in prison

[Bobby Fischer]

Everybody got in on their installation deal with their buddies and made a few million installing this junk.

Thats how we do things in racing.

Instead of marketing the sport to the masses on cable television( a niche that companies like tvg and hrtv have to step up independantly to fill half-assed!!) and instead of making $$ on bet accounts(who needs beer commercials now?), and instead of "selling" the game through cable television to the American consumer to double or triple the popularity and income of the sport - we make little deals. We will install your surface .... we will run your mini-casino...

- small time independant stuff that doesn't really benefit the business of the sport as a whole and leaves it underdeveloped.

We thought about all the issues on these surfaces for a short time, and then almost randomly installed a variety of surfaces from a variety of businesses (for a variety of different "deals").

Now we have garbage dust cloud surfaces in Turfway and Woodbine. We have a cushion and a fast cushion in California. We have a polytrack in Keeneland and Arlington. We have a heavy-polytrack at Del Mar. We have a Tapeta footing surface at PID

They installed this synthetic-turf at the expense of the quality, aesthetics, and dynamics of classic distance dirt racing. They played the safety card as if that was their interest.


Synthetic-turf is a fine 3rd surface. A lot of animals would do well to occasionaly train on the synthetic-turf. The cheaper animals would do better to run on it at all times. The poor-weather season runners would benefit.

[Riot]

Watch the card today and tell me if you think the cocking of the heads is a natural position for a horse straightening up for a drive. These horses are being fanned out deep because they WILL NOT run thorugh the kickback which is evident to anybody watching the races.

Ah, then I am blind

Off to Keeneland.

[The Bid]

Maybe you just dont know what you are looking at. Everyone sees the races different.

I do not mean that as a dig to you, pay close attention to the horses in behind before they get fanned out. Have a nice day at Keeneland

[ArlJim78]

they fan out wide on the poly because they can do it and still win. because of the surface and the banking you can fan out and not lose all chance. why is it puzzling that riders get in lanes to avoid kickback? there is also kickback on dirt and if you could fan out and have a chance at a rally they all would do it on dirt as well. the reality is that if you fan out on dirt you're normally toast, but they do it as much as they can get away with. if they couldn't fan out on the poly and rally and win they wouldn't do it and the results would be more speed favoring like on dirt.

[sumitas]

It's way too early to say all weather is no better than dirt. Just as it was way too early to say it is safer. The data and anecdotal feedback on all weather is still positive over all.

[Riot]

There are many studies that have examined the interaction between the hoof of a horse at a racing gallop, historic track surfaces, and injury rates. Synthetic surfaces are designed to eliminate the physical properties we know contribute to breakdown and injury.

A great source of information (you can read the abstracts and conclusions, but have to order the article if you want the details) is PubMed.

Go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez and enter multiple search terms such as: equine surface track

Is Belmont safer than Saratoga? Than Aqueduct? There was a study on this in the 1980's - you can look that up, very interesting

[Riot]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Maybe you just dont know what you are looking at. Everyone sees the races different.

I do not mean that as a dig to you, pay close attention to the horses in behind before they get fanned out. Have a nice day at Keeneland

Had a wonderful day, thanks - the tornados and rain have held off during the day, and will come tonight (VERY wet at Kee tomorrow most likely).

Seriously, Bid - standing at the rail at Kee, on site several days, watching the races this meet, kickback has not seemed to be a concern at all. Horses are not coming back covered in Poly, as they come back covered in dirt. Horses are fanning out for the race down the home stretch, and are not afraid of the middle of the track. I didn't see kickback as a problem at AP the one day I attended this summer. I know Turfway had a problem last winter that was solved.

[AeWingnut]

There isn't any excessive kick back at Keeneland that I have noticed.
Turfway is the kick back king. Woodbine in the winter is like watching a truck going down a freshly rocked road.

Teuflesberg has had a long campaign
The other horses - don't know