Hard Spun to the King's Bishop

NoLuvForPletch · #1 08-07-2007, 08:06 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...e_races-2.html

I Love It! Hopefully they get that G1 Steve was talking about on his show yesterday and can then try him on the grass. If here romps here there is no way they should put him back in the Classic. I would love to see him run in the Kelso on the turf at BEL, and if he takes to it (and why shouldn't he?) run him in the BC Mile. There have to be so many different people pulling the strings here. Between Jones himself, Porter, the Darley guys trying to get the most out of him for stud duties and all of the "fans" (like us) advising him on what he should do with his horse, it has to be a madhouse over at Jones' barn. I know Larry, from what I've read, just LOVES being told how to handle his horse. I feel for him, but I feel for the horse as well. He's a very nice horse who has not been handled real well and now because he will only run until the end of the year will be hard pressed to go out and find that race that will make him the most valuable as a stallion prospect, instead of just letting him mature and become the best he can as a racehorse. I'm kind of wishing he didn't run so well in the Derby and then maybe breeders wouldn't have taken such a liking to him.

robfla · #2 08-07-2007, 08:25 AM

seeing he LOVES being told what to do, I'll tell him that i think the Malibu would be the better idea. He is already proven on synthetis and liklier softer competition.

The Indomitable DrugS · #3 08-07-2007, 08:39 AM

Hard Spun would have a serious look in the Breeders Cup Classic.

He's a much better horse when he's allowed to make the early lead, which he hasn't been since the Derby....because a wide variety of reasons ranging from Flying First Class and Xchanger setting crazy fractions in the Preakness, to incompetent race-riding by Gomez in the Belmont, to an early stumble while breaking from a slight outside post in the Haskell.

All the cheap speed that has denied him leads lately (horses like Xchanger, Cable Boy, etc) would certainly go in a race like the Breeders Cup Dirt Mile instead, if they'd run in a BC race at all.

Monmouth is a track that can be especially kind to controlling speed horses (see Gottcha Gold's wire-to-wire upset of Lawyer Ron at near level weight) and Hard Spun would prove a very elusive target to catch on the fairly easy lead he could possibly get.

If Hard Spun doesn't go in the Breeders Cup Classic....it could certainly setup to be a very paceless race.

NoLuvForPletch · #4 08-07-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robfla

seeing he LOVES being told what to do, I'll tell him that i think the Malibu would be the better idea. He is already proven on synthetis and liklier softer competition.

I don't think the 3YO Sprint Division is strong anywhere, East coast or West coast. Who will he face in the King's Bishop, Teufelsberg? Most Distingushed? Americanus? Sports Town? King of the Roxy? Black Seventeen? Am I missing someone? Not exactly Murderers' Row.

philcski · #5 08-07-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Hard Spun would have a serious look in the Breeders Cup Classic.

He's a much better horse when he's allowed to make the early lead, which he hasn't been since the Derby....because a wide variety of reasons ranging from Flying First Class and Xchanger setting crazy fractions in the Preakness, to incompetent race-riding by Gomez in the Belmont, to an early stumble while breaking from a slight outside post in the Haskell.

All the cheap speed that has denied him leads lately (horses like Xchanger, Cable Boy, etc) would certainly go in a race like the Breeders Cup Dirt Mile instead, if they'd run in a BC race at all.

Monmouth is a track that can be especially kind to controlling speed horses (see Gottcha Gold's wire-to-wire upset of Lawyer Ron at near level weight) and Hard Spun would prove a very elusive target to catch on the fairly easy lead he could possibly get.

If Hard Spun doesn't go in the Breeders Cup Classic....it could certainly setup to be a very paceless race.

I've given up on him after the Haskell... which means he'll probably win his next start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

I don't think the 3YO Sprint Division is strong anywhere, East coast or West coast. Who will he face in the King's Bishop, Teufelsberg? Most Distingushed? Americanus? Sports Town? King of the Roxy? Black Seventeen? Am I missing someone? Not exactly Murderers' Row.

Sports Town is dead.

boswd · #6 08-07-2007, 08:51 AM

If everything checks out OK it should include Stomello as well.

NoLuvForPletch · #7 08-07-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

I've given up on him after the Haskell... which means he'll probably win his next start.

Sports Town is dead.

Yikes, sorry about that folks, RIP.

NoLuvForPletch · #8 08-07-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boswd

If everything checks out OK it should include Stomello as well.

Kind of tough to run 7f 3 weeks after a bout with colic, wouldn't you think?

SniperSB23 · #9 08-07-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

I don't think the 3YO Sprint Division is strong anywhere, East coast or West coast. Who will he face in the King's Bishop, Teufelsberg? Most Distingushed? Americanus? Sports Town? King of the Roxy? Black Seventeen? Am I missing someone? Not exactly Murderers' Row.

For some bizarre reason they are running Idiot Proof in a Cal-bred stakes on the polytrack. I would have liked to have seen him go in the King's Bishop since like you said, it isn't exactly Murderers' Row.

ArlJim78 · #10 08-07-2007, 09:08 AM

Why not, I like the idea. I don't care what the pace is for the BCC he would have no shot at wiring the field at 10F. His best shot at doing that came in the derby. Even at 9F he barely held off Curlin who needed the race and didn't hold off AGS of course. I think its sensible to shorten up a bit.

slotdirt · #11 08-07-2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Why not, I like the idea. I don't care what the pace is for the BCC he would have no shot at wiring the field at 10F. His best shot at doing that came in the derby. Even at 9F he barely held off Curlin who needed the race and didn't hold off AGS of course. I think its sensible to shorten up a bit.

Question: Hard Spun and Curlin both ran very similar schedules this year in terms of races and spacing, and even were coming out of the exact same race with the exact same layoff heading into the Haskell, yet Curlin needed the race and Hard Spun didn't? Please explain...

The Indomitable DrugS · #12 08-07-2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I don't care what the pace is for the BCC he would have no shot at wiring the field at 10F.

Like Gottcha Gold had no shot of beating Lawyer Ron at near level weight?

Hard Spun only lost the Derby because the winner was allowed to pass 16 horses without leaving the rail....his race was unarguably better.

You really think he's as effective when he doesn't have the lead? To hold the fact that he out-photo'd Curlin against him...while denied the lead after an early stumble....I don't see the logic behind that.

But hey, Hard Spun will be a price in the Classic.....I'd be very excited to bet him in that spot.

The Bid · #13 08-07-2007, 09:23 AM

Curlin looks like he would be harder to keep fit than Hard Spun. Hes a bigger stronger looking horse. Im sure they both needed a race, but probably Curlin a little more than HS. I also give Curlin no excuse for not passing HardSpun, hes supposed to be the second coming. He rolled up and should have passed. I think HardSpun is easily the second best horse in this years crop maybe the best if used at the correct distance. Also think he will be a superior grass miler.

The Indomitable DrugS · #14 08-07-2007, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think you are finally losing it DrugS. Street Sense was helped by the rail trip in the Derby, but wasn't Hard Spun helped out by the strangle hold that was put on Stormello?

Please don't tell me you are trying to compare the trip HS got--with the one SS got --- for their respective styles.

That would be pretty crazy.

Hard Spun set a very fast pace in a race loaded with high quality speed horses---the fact that Stormello was rated hard takes nothing away from his performance.

It seems as though you are not taking the Derby pace into consideration when evaluating SS's trip....I know you'll admit his "trip" was the luckiest you've ever seen in a big race.....but it was also further setup by the fast pace--- which we all expected he'd get going in.

mik9872 · #15 08-07-2007, 09:46 AM

Hard Spun should point for the Breeders Cup Mile on the grass.He is a cut below the horses pointing for the Classic. The mile would further his value as a sire. Jones should point him for it and develop a plan to reach it.

NoLuvForPletch · #16 08-07-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bid

Curlin looks like he would be harder to keep fit than Hard Spun. Hes a bigger stronger looking horse. Im sure they both needed a race, but probably Curlin a little more than HS. I also give Curlin no excuse for not passing HardSpun, hes supposed to be the second coming. He rolled up and should have passed. I think HardSpun is easily the second best horse in this years crop maybe the best if used at the correct distance. Also think he will be a superior grass miler.

I think Hard Spun has a tremendous heart that everyone is not giving him credit for. When he ran at Oaklawn he never, ever gave up. Even though he had every right to. In the Derby he only fought SS for a brief moment as SS went by, but he never completely gave up the fight and "chased him" to the wire. The Preakness and Belmont were horrifying to watch and I'm sure just as horrifying to the horse running in the race. But even in the Haskell, while AGS blew by him, he never let Curlin by. I just don't know why he doesn't have that acceleration to go with his first challenger? Which would be my only concern about him running on the grass. Those closers come with such a furious rush at the end I'm not sure he can accelerate along with them to hold them off.

ArlJim78 · #17 08-07-2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Like Gottcha Gold had no shot of beating Lawyer Ron at near level weight?

Hard Spun only lost the Derby because the winner was allowed to pass 16 horses without leaving the rail....his race was unarguably better.

You really think he's as effective when he doesn't have the lead? To hold the fact that he out-photo'd Curlin against him...while denied the lead after an early stumble....I don't see the logic behind that.

But hey, Hard Spun will be a price in the Classic.....I'd be very excited to bet him in that spot.

in his last winning effort he didn't have the lead, the Turfway race. I don't think his issue is so much having the lead or not. I think its just that you have to just let him run, don't try to restrain him, but also don't count on any passing gear either. If he makes the lead fine, but he can also sit off of a determined speed horse inside of him like Cable Boy.

I will be very eager to leave him off the top of my ticket in the breeders cup classic, should he go that route which i doubt. I can't even imagine what kind of perfect storm it would take for him to win that race. how many consecutive 2-4 place finishes will it take to convince you he isn't at the top of the 3yo crop, let alone elders.

Nice horse for sure, not a classic contender imo.

ArlJim78 · #18 08-07-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

I think Hard Spun has a tremendous heart that everyone is not giving him credit for. When he ran at Oaklawn he never, ever gave up. Even though he had every right to. In the Derby he only fought SS for a brief moment as SS went by, but he never completely gave up the fight and "chased him" to the wire. The Preakness and Belmont were horrifying to watch and I'm sure just as horrifying to the horse running in the race. But even in the Haskell, while AGS blew by him, he never let Curlin by. I just don't know why he doesn't have that acceleration to go with his first challenger? Which would be my only concern about him running on the grass. Those closers come with such a furious rush at the end I'm not sure he can accelerate along with them to hold them off.

that is right, he doesn't have a kick, or passing gear. he can run fast a long way, which is a fine quality.

The Bid · #19 08-07-2007, 10:02 AM

I dont think he would need a passing gear going a mile on the grass. Hes a fast horse

NoLuvForPletch · #20 08-07-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

in his last winning effort he didn't have the lead, the Turfway race. I don't think his issue is so much having the lead or not. I think its just that you have to just let him run, don't try to restrain him, but also don't count on any passing gear either. If he makes the lead fine, but he can also sit off of a determined speed horse inside of him like Cable Boy.

I will be very eager to leave him off the top of my ticket in the breeders cup classic, should he go that route which i doubt. I can't even imagine what kind of perfect storm it would take for him to win that race. will it take to convince you how many consecutive 2-4 place finisheshe isn't at the top of the 3yo crop, let alone elders.

Nice horse for sure, not a classic contender imo.

What 3YO's are above him?

Street Sense
Rags to Riches (although I find it hard to gauge Hard Spun's performance in that race for obvious reasons, I'll say the filly)
Curlin (maybe, not Saturday though)
Any Given Saturday (maybe, though I'd like another shot at him at 1 1/8 with a race under Hard Spun's belt)
Dream Rush (unlikely though I'd like to see those 2 hook up for 7f)
Tiago(not)
Zanjero (not)
NoBiz (not)

Help me out here, because by my calculations, he is at the top of the 3YO class.