Graded Earnings: Is there an alternative?

[whodey17]

I was looking over the graded earnings list and each year I sort of get upset about a horse who has the earnings based on just one race. This year it is Tiago. The horse has only crossed the finishe line once in 1st place. The lone race was the Santa Anita Derby. That gives his enough money to get into the Derby. I would really like to see some sort of pts system in graded races. I think a horse who runs in a Grade I gets 3 pts and a Grade II gets 2 pts and a Grade III gets 1 pt. Then you get pts based on your finish. So if you finish 1st you get 10 pts, 2nd get your 7 pts, 3rd get you 5, 4th you gets 3 and everyone else gets 1. Then you take the top 20 in pts and that is your field. I think this would eliminate horses who get lucky in one race. I am just complaining here. The graded system that we currently have is good.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I was looking over the graded earnings list and each year I sort of get upset about a horse who has the earnings based on just one race. This year it is Tiago. The horse has only crossed the finishe line once in 1st place. The lone race was the Santa Anita Derby. That gives his enough money to get into the Derby. I would really like to see some sort of pts system in graded races. I think a horse who runs in a Grade I gets 3 pts and a Grade II gets 2 pts and a Grade III gets 1 pt. Then you get pts based on your finish. So if you finish 1st you get 10 pts, 2nd get your 7 pts, 3rd get you 5, 4th you gets 3 and everyone else gets 1. Then you take the top 20 in pts and that is your field. I think this would eliminate horses who get lucky in one race. I am just complaining here. The graded system that we currently have is good.

Brilliant idea, let's exclude the winner of the Santa Anita Derby so the Teuflesbergs of the world can get in every year. Wouldn't Chelokee be a better horse to complain about since he hasn't done anything in terms of graded earnings but run third in the Florida Derby? Or Xchanger who doesn't have a penny of graded earnings as a 3yo?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by whodey17

I was looking over the graded earnings list and each year I sort of get upset about a horse who has the earnings based on just one race. This year it is Tiago. The horse has only crossed the finishe line once in 1st place. The lone race was the Santa Anita Derby. That gives his enough money to get into the Derby. I would really like to see some sort of pts system in graded races. I think a horse who runs in a Grade I gets 3 pts and a Grade II gets 2 pts and a Grade III gets 1 pt. Then you get pts based on your finish. So if you finish 1st you get 10 pts, 2nd get your 7 pts, 3rd get you 5, 4th you gets 3 and everyone else gets 1. Then you take the top 20 in pts and that is your field. I think this would eliminate horses who get lucky in one race. I am just complaining here. The graded system that we currently have is good.

Well Tiago won a grade one so under your system he'd have an advantage. . . There is definitely no doubt in my mind that he's one of the best 20 3yolds right now and belongs in the gate. . . The fact that the winner of the Lex will get into the derby sort of bothers me, though. . . None of the potential runners seem worthy to me. . .

[whodey17]

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

He won one G1 race. What horse that won't get in has won more than one graded stakes this year?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Why do you people feel like Tiago should be in the field. He has won 1 race. Heck, Wilko won the BC Juve and look what he has done since. Just because a horse catches a weak field on his best day doesnt make him a credible horse come Derby day. I feel my system awards horses who show up and race and for consistancy. I do not like Teuf at all, but I do give the horse credit for throwing his hat in the ring several times this year and last. I just dont see how one can say a horse is a viable Derby contendar based on one race.

So if Tiago doesn't belong in the Derby for winning a G1 with a 102 beyer, do King of the Roxy, Liquidity, or Sam P. belong? After all, he beat all of them. . .

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

So if Tiago doesn't belong in the Derby for winning a G1 with a 102 beyer, do King of the Roxy, Liquidity, or Sam P. belong? After all, he beat all of them. . .

If the horses you mentioned only won 1 Grade race, and raced and finished 7th in a Grade II then the answer would be no. Liquidity has raced in 3 Grade I's, one Grade II and one Grade III. King Of The Roxy has raced in 2 Grade I's and 3 Grade II's finishing 1st or 2nd in all of them but one where he finished 8th. Sam P has raced in 1 Grade I, 2 Grade II's and 1 Grade III never finishing worse than 5th. So YES, I do believe that Liquidity, King Of The Roxy and Sam P deserve it more than Tiago.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

He won one G1 race. What horse that won't get in has won more than one graded stakes this year?

It isnt a question of one race. I am looking at the entire body of work. A great example would be Curlin. He hasnt even won or raced in a Grade I event. He has looked good winning what he has. When it comes to the Derby you need to look at the horses entire body of work instead of just one race in Tiago's case.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by whodey17

It isnt a question of one race. I am looking at the entire body of work. A great example would be Curlin. He hasnt even won or raced in a Grade I event. He has looked good winning what he has. When it comes to the Derby you need to look at the horses entire body of work instead of just one race in Tiago's case.

OK, give me a list of twenty horses that want to get into the Derby whose entire body of work is better than Tiago's.

[Thunder Gulch]

Field of 20 and everyone knows the rules. Every year it seems that someone develops late and becomes the bubble horse that people talk about, but the most deserving get in. I think graded earnings is as good as any system to fill up the field. Maybe you could find a weighting system to adjust graded earnings for distance and adjust down for 2yo money, but I wouldn't recommend any dramatic changes.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by whodey17

If the horses you mentioned only won 1 Grade race, and raced and finished 7th in a Grade II then the answer would be no. Liquidity has raced in 3 Grade I's, one Grade II and one Grade III. King Of The Roxy has raced in 2 Grade I's and 3 Grade II's finishing 1st or 2nd in all of them but one where he finished 8th. Sam P has raced in 1 Grade I, 2 Grade II's and 1 Grade III never finishing worse than 5th. So YES, I do believe that Liquidity, King Of The Roxy and Sam P deserve it more than Tiago.

So Sam P., who has only won a MSW and an ALW is more deserving because he raced in more graded stakes but didn't win or even really threaten in any of them?

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

So Sam P., who has only won a MSW and an ALW is more deserving because he raced in more graded stakes but didn't win or even really threaten in any of them?

Without a doubt yes. The way we have it now, a trainer can point their horse to one race and hope for the best. I do not feel that is good for racing. Tiago has only crossed the finish line once in first and the other races he hasnt even been a threat. I think you should give more consideration to horses who are showing up in these graded events. There should be more weight given to a horse who races more often in graded events than a horse getting lucky and winning just one race.

Look at our BC Juve winner. He decides to race is 2 preps. How is this good for racing. The same with Great Hunter and Quay. If we promote this sport around the Triple Crown and around the Breeders Cup then we need to do something to spice up the route to these two events. We need to make these horses earn their way into the sports biggest two days.

[pba1817]

I think the graded money is the fairest way to make the field. A slight change I would make would be making the rule strictly 3YO graded money, 2YO money should hold no relevance.

I feel too many early blooming horses over the years have taken advantage of the MUCH easier graded money at 2, never progressed at 3, and really had zero business taking a spot in the KY Derby from some promising later blooming 3YO's.

[hi_im_god]

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

I would think a Czar nominated by God would be tough to deny.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you want a system that will exclude the winner of a major prep race 4 weeks before the derby from a 20 horse field i think the only answer is no system. you need a czar.

i'll nominate you as soon as you name 20 more deserving horses.

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

[Linny]

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by whodey17

1) Street Sense
2) Great Hunter
3) Hard Spun
4) No Biz
5) Scat Daddy
6) Circular Quay
7) Curlin
8) Dominican
9) Stormello
10) Zanjero
11) Liquidity
12) Teuffelsburg
13) Any Given Saturday
14) Cowtown Cat
15) King Of The Roxy
16) Sam P
17) Officer Rocket
18) XChanger
19) Storm In May
20) Sightseeing

You're not serious, right?

[Danzig]

why would a horse who places in a graded race deserve to be in the derby ahead of a horse who WINS a graded race??? if you PLACE in a couple, that means more than winning?? i think that's bs.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Linny

I read a post on another board about someone regretting Tiago keeping Chelokee out. What a crock. Both trainers did the same thing. The put all their eggs in one basket by using ONE GRADED START to attempt to earn their way in. Tiago was lucky in that his connections chose a pretty weak race. Chelokee had to face a proven G1 colt like Scat Daddy and could do no better than third. Maybe the should have gone to Cali or the Lane's End, they didn't.

I tend to think that a point system where graded earnings at 3 are worth more than those at 2 and where routes count for more than sprints. That said, it looks like this year, pretty much " the right 20" will line up.

don't forget smarty jones--talk about putting your eggs in one basket. his ark derby was his ONLY graded race. so by some folks logic, he should have been excluded?! howl utterly preposterous!!

the rules are the same for everyone leading up to the derby. your horse doesn't get enough graded $--tough. he does? great. you hit the jackpot.