Quote:
Originally Posted by gales0678
chuck , between '96 and '01 in key situations tell me where torre blew it
i just don't get it , the bullpen was the reason why they won from 96 - 01
the starting pitching while very good were matched by other teams , it was all about the bullpen and not just rivera that the yanks won those 4 titles
as the starting pitching got worse later on in the torre years , yeah the bullpen got worse
|
marty the guy has a 25 year track record of blowing up pitchers. Wettleand didnt blow up because he left NY was soon out of baseball. Lloyd was never effective after leaving NY. Mendoza was never any good, Nelson had 2 years of torre abuse then had 2 years of arm trouble. Mariano is about the only guy to ever survive multiple years of Torre but that guy is simply on another level, hence my comment about the how amazing it was he survived.
You are just missing the point. It isnt that the bullpens didnt perform in the short term (seriously how can a pen with Rivera as a setup guy go too wrong) but but that he consistently blows out guys by overusing them. Take Proctor for instance. In back to back years he pitched 83 games. That's half of a teams games(166 out of 324)! Basically he pitched every other game. Plus he warmed up for every appearance and most likely also warmed up on other occasions where he did not actually come into the games. Read the links. This is hardly even debatable as the evidence is overwhelming. He was doing it prior to managing the Yankees and is still doing it now. He is doing it with Broxton (last week Broxton threw more pitches than the starters), he is doing it with Troncoso (82 innings last year after 38 the prior year and his era has gone from 2.72 to 5.45 this year) and he is doing it with belisario who has also regressed after being ridden too hard last year. I know that he has 2 guys in the pen that are handled with kid gloves (Sherill and Kuo-who also broke down again after too many innings in 2008) but his pattern has been the same since he was in St Louis before he was considered a good manager. He is a very good manager who handles the starters well but like everyone else he has weaknesses and the bullpen is his. If after reading the links and seeing how he handled Broxton last week you still disagree then there probably isnt much I can do to convince you outside of someones arm falling off like Zumaya's did the other day.