[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Rupert, for a man who wants people to deal in the facts, you're not very careful about checking your own...

The Sixth Amendment does not contain an exception for wartime. There have been cases that have argued there is an implicit exception, but if you're a strict constructionist, it ain't technically in there.

The two main drafters of the PATRIOT Act were Ass't Attorney General Viet D. Dinh and future Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff. I'd hardly call that "bi-partisan." And neither were Congressmembers when they drafted the PATRIOT Act.

Yes, it was passed with overwhelming support- 98-1 in the Senate and 357-66 in the House (100 Senators and 435 Representatives, for a total of 535 voting bodies. I guess some abstained. I'm uncertain where you got 450- please let me know if I'm wrong about the number of Reps we have). Many Representatives and Senators didn't even read the whole thing, since it was dropped on them fast and the vote brought up faster (doesn't excuse them for not reading it, but sure seems shifty on behalf of Bush & Co, eh? Where was the harm in letting people have time to read the darn thing before making them vote on it?). If they had read it, maybe they might have noticed provision 411, which makes any association with a terrorist EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE PERSON WAS A TERRORIST a deportable offense. How about that? Your coworker turns out to be an Islamic radical and suddenly you are shipped out of the country.

Sixteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudi, weren't they? As in "We have great relations with Saudi Arabia" Saudi Arabia? And most of those nations you list are not democracies, correct?

Speaking of the people "over there" getting propaganda and not the truth-- have you watched Fox News lately? Pot? Kettle. Have you met?

You're absolutely right to not want to accept opinion as fact, but it sometimes seems that you prefer to cut the right a break on facts and hold the left to a higher standard. And they should both be held to the same one (high). So be fair and balanced, why don' 'cha, since Fox News clearly won't be?

For everyone-- here's a link to Keith Olberman on 9/11-- he's become somewhat of a darling of the liberal blogosphere, which I find odd because he's hardly a liberal, but I guess in these right-winger times, a fair analysis seems like a left-leaning one...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=B_4ZmcPEcVY

But I'm still glad you're posting, Rupert-- it's no fun debating things when only like-minded people post (much as I love to read what they have to say). And Seattle-- dude, you crack me up. Nice "Casino" reference.

I just checked the original vote on the Patriot Act. As you said it passed the Senate practically unanimously by a vote of 98-1. It passed the House by a vote of 357-66 as you said. That is pretty overwhelming and shows absolue bi-partisan support. I think that is nonsense that most Congressmen did not read it or were not aware of its contents. It was passed agian last year with a few minor chnages and it passed overwhelmingly with bi-partisan support. Your argumnet is ridiculous that the congressmen had no time to read it. How do you explain it passing so overwhelmingly last year after congressmen had 5 years to read it?

With regard to the media, you have it totally backwards. For years we had a media that was way left of center. I think the polls showed that over 90% of the media labeled themselves as liberal democrats. There was a huge liberal bias in the media. Now we have Fox News that is a little right of center, and you think that is awful. It's hilarious. Fox is no further right than the mainstream media has been to the left over the years. At least with Fox, all of their shows have guests from both sides. O'Reilly is definitely well right of center but he constantly brings on guests that are way left of center and debates them. What is wrong with that? Both sides get their say. Not only that, at least Fox News has plenty of liberal hosts and anchors. Geraldo is a democrat. Gretta is a democrat. Allan Colmes is a democrat. Name me a republican anchor at CBS, NBC, or ABC. There are so few republican reporters in the mainstream media that it is ridiculous.

I find it amusing that many liberals see Fox News as so far right-wing and yet they don't even recognize how left-wing the mainstream media is. You are so used to the left-wing media that when a news organization(Fox) comes along that is a little right of center, you think it's some crazy right-wing propaganda. It's hilarious.

By the way, if you're an American, you can't be deported for knowing a terrorist. I think you misunderstood that part. That only applies to people that are here on visas.

By the way, you are wrong about the Constitution. The Constitution specifically says that certain rights cannot be guaranteed during war time or emergencies.