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Zippy Chippy 10-27-2008 09:42 PM
Curlin
 
Just a thought that came to mind: we have watched god-knows-how-many top horses get prematurely retired to stud because owners are afraid that a poor performance will hurt the horse's stud value. Of course, Curlin has been the exception to this because of all the legal wranglings that have kept him out on the track instead of being shipped to the shed. Although he was the favorite, Curlin came in fourth in the BC Classic.

The prevailing "wisdom" is that an unblemished record is the key to high stud fees. If this is true, do you think that Curlin's potential stud fee will suffer because of his showing in the Classic?

Cannon Shell 10-27-2008 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy Chippy
Just a thought that came to mind: we have watched god-knows-how-many top horses get prematurely retired to stud because owners are afraid that a poor performance will hurt the horse's stud value. Of course, Curlin has been the exception to this because of all the legal wranglings that have kept him out on the track instead of being shipped to the shed. Although he was the favorite, Curlin came in fourth in the BC Classic.

The prevailing "wisdom" is that an unblemished record is the key to high stud fees. If this is true, do you think that Curlin's potential stud fee will suffer because of his showing in the Classic?
No. Who has an unblemished record heading to stud? Racing performance is only one facet of stud fee.

King Glorious 10-28-2008 12:38 AM
I don't think so. I think these things are determined strictly by what races you win, not by which ones you lose as far as racing performance goes.

10 pnt move up 10-28-2008 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
I don't think so. I think these things are determined strictly by what races you win, not by which ones you lose as far as racing performance goes.
I would also add in the figures to the races you win.

cakes44 10-28-2008 11:49 AM
I think it possibly could just because stud fees from now on will be somewhat based on potential of offspring on synthetics.

kgar311 10-28-2008 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy Chippy
Just a thought that came to mind: we have watched god-knows-how-many top horses get prematurely retired to stud because owners are afraid that a poor performance will hurt the horse's stud value. Of course, Curlin has been the exception to this because of all the legal wranglings that have kept him out on the track instead of being shipped to the shed. Although he was the favorite, Curlin came in fourth in the BC Classic.

The prevailing "wisdom" is that an unblemished record is the key to high stud fees. If this is true, do you think that Curlin's potential stud fee will suffer because of his showing in the Classic?
I love how ESPN gave and Jess Jackson took all the credit for keeping Curlin in racing. Saying he doesnt do it for money and he kept the horse going for the best interests of the game. What a joke. If it wasnt for the crook part owners Curlin would of been retired with the rest of them.

GBBob 10-28-2008 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgar311
I love how ESPN gave and Jess Jackson took all the credit for keeping Curlin in racing. Saying he doesnt do it for money and he kept the horse going for the best interests of the game. What a joke. If it wasnt for the crook part owners Curlin would of been retired with the rest of them.
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.

FGFan 10-28-2008 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.
Not the only one...:)

kgar311 10-28-2008 01:06 PM
Im holding out some small hope also. Back to Back World Cups? If he couldnt get the classics.

freddymo 10-28-2008 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.
I promise to be motivated by money and greed and not ego!

GBBob 10-28-2008 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
I promise to be motivated by money and greed and not ego!

phew..thank you

Danzig 10-28-2008 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.

i think he realized he had no shot at getting a stud deal until the legalities are settled (and they should be shortly) so he went after the brass ring-and it worked out for him. but i don't think anything other than having his hand forced is what got him to keep the horse in training, he had no other choice.

ddthetide 10-28-2008 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.
well said.

Cannon Shell 10-28-2008 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up
I would also add in the figures to the races you win.
I dont think figures matter much. I know some guys a few years ago who bought up a bunch of mares with ok pedigrees that had run really big numbers winning a maiden or allowance or even claiming race but got hurt or never made it to stakes company. They figured that since the horse had run fast numbers (rag sheets) but never got black type that they would be potentially way better than they paid for them. All of them turned out to be failures as mares. I'm sure that some bad luck was involved but it showed me that speed figures has little relation to breeding potential. Honestly i talk to breeders and guys from the big stud farms all the time and they only bring up speed figures when talking about stallions when they dont have a whole lot of other credentials.

Cannon Shell 10-28-2008 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cakes44
I think it possibly could just because stud fees from now on will be somewhat based on potential of offspring on synthetics.
I dont think that is a factor yet. Positive stats will be used to promote certain stallions but there is not enough data to suggest there arenegative synthetic stallions yet.

Cannon Shell 10-28-2008 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgar311
I love how ESPN gave and Jess Jackson took all the credit for keeping Curlin in racing. Saying he doesnt do it for money and he kept the horse going for the best interests of the game. What a joke. If it wasnt for the crook part owners Curlin would of been retired with the rest of them.
Interesting that he doesnt 'do it for the money' but has a huge commercial breeding operation that sells tons of horses.

ELA 10-28-2008 05:32 PM
People critisized the horse for a variety of reasons. People critisized Jackson because everyone knew the truth in that he was brought back this year due to legal issues. People critisized Jackson, to no end, when it appeared he wasn't going to show up to the BC to defend his title. People critisized Jackson for things he has said because it wasn't truthful. People critisized. And critisized. OK. Got it.

The guy and his horse showed up. He ran. He got beat. Now I guess the horse gets critisized for getting beat and Jackson get critisized for doing what people said he wouldn't. I guess the horse and Jackson are "damned if you do damned if you don't" so to speak.

Eric

Cannon Shell 10-28-2008 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I know I'm in the minority..hell..I'm probably the only one, but I think there is a chance that other factors besides the 20% issues kept Curlin running this year.

1) Certainly Jackson doesn't need the stud fee deal, which, unless a horse is hurt, is the motivating factor for retiring to stud. But what money can't buy is the overall earnings record and I think that was something his ego wanted.

2) His ego also wanted what ESPN and others gave him...the accolades from being the man who bucked the trend and put Curlin on the road. I wouldn't fall over if he kept him running next year for that very reason. Probably won't happen, but for a man who has or can afford every material thing possible,
being on the road with the best horse in the land ( image wise) is a very powerful motivator.
3) Old Jess is not the most popular fellow in Lexington and there wasn't anybody real excited do stand a horse with him as a major partner (they figured it will only be a matter of time before they get sued) And Darley does not take partners, period. Who else can afford what he will want for him?

Cannon Shell 10-28-2008 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ELA
People critisized the horse for a variety of reasons. People critisized Jackson because everyone knew the truth in that he was brought back this year due to legal issues. People critisized Jackson, to no end, when it appeared he wasn't going to show up to the BC to defend his title. People critisized Jackson for things he has said because it wasn't truthful. People critisized. And critisized. OK. Got it.

The guy and his horse showed up. He ran. He got beat. Now I guess the horse gets critisized for getting beat and Jackson get critisized for doing what people said he wouldn't. I guess the horse and Jackson are "damned if you do damned if you don't" so to speak.Eric
Isnt everyone?

ELA 10-28-2008 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Interesting that he doesnt 'do it for the money' but has a huge commercial breeding operation that sells tons of horses.
Jackson is a commercial breeder, however, I think he is a commercial breeder in a different form and fashion. On one end of the extreme you have a Juddmonte, or a Darley/Godolphin/Marylou Whitney -- people who, I believe, for the most part do not sell yearlings. However, with Jackson, it is not black and white. Does he sell yearlings? Yes, I guess he does.

Regardless, by selling a ton of horses, one can certainly cannot draw a line and say he's a nonprofit or doesn't have profit in mind by selling horses. However, to say that he "does it for the money" is a fallacious arguement.

Eric


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