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-   -   11 race BC not stupid enough.. (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9149)

Kasept 01-25-2007 04:27 PM

11 race BC not stupid enough..
 
http://www.drf.com/news/article/82095.html

Get ready for a 2-day, 16 race Breeders' Cup by 2010...

Sightseek 01-25-2007 04:34 PM

Why not just close all tracks but Churchill and only run the Derby in the spring and this new improved Breeder's Cup in the fall....seems like that is the only thing people in power care about any more and it would fit in perfectly with those short racing campaigns that are all the rage now. :rolleyes:

blackthroatedwind 01-25-2007 04:43 PM

When you get so much brainpower in one place it's just amazing what can happen.

We had eight or nine for this year's BC Turf.....how exactly are we going to fill the additional 1 1/4 mile race?

One thing is for sure....the BC is hellbent on putting the Claiming Crown out of business. Might be time for Moschera to get back in the game.

Echo Farm 01-25-2007 04:43 PM

Just hand out the Eclipse awards at the Breeders' Cup races one to each winner, one to the leading jockey/trainer/owner and be done with it.

paisjpq 01-25-2007 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
One thing is for sure....the BC is hellbent on putting the Claiming Crown out of business.

nah, they are just folding those horses into the 'big' day:rolleyes:

hoovesupsideyourhead 01-25-2007 04:44 PM

unreal..dumbest thing ever...

KirisClown 01-25-2007 04:49 PM

More Grade 1s for 2yr olds... thats exactly what we need. :rolleyes:

blackthroatedwind 01-25-2007 04:53 PM

I always leave each year dying to know just who was the best 2YO at 6F.

brianwspencer 01-25-2007 05:00 PM

Well, those at the Breeders' Cup must have realized that they only had a few days left this week to pry the trophy for "Worst Idea Ever" away from the Tiajauna Police Department....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16763344/

PaulRyansew 01-25-2007 05:09 PM

I didn't know there was such a pressing need for another 8.5 furlong race for fillies. :rolleyes: BC Day is becoming like "Honors and Awards Day" at elementary school. They have to make stuff up so everyone can feel special.

I think they should card a BC Steeplechase Sprint, since they want to have a race for every little niche.

Danzig 01-25-2007 05:33 PM

i know the race that would fill first---the race to the breeding shed.

PaulRyansew 01-25-2007 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig188
i know the race that would fill first---the race to the breeding shed.

LOL... they should put a mare in heat out on the infield, and see which owner-trainer combo can get their colt prepped, ready, and out there covering her first...

Five Star Derek 01-25-2007 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept
http://www.drf.com/news/article/82095.html

Get ready for a 2-day, 16 race Breeders' Cup by 2010...

No wonder this sport has so much trouble attracting new fans.

brockguy 01-25-2007 06:12 PM

"Europeans, meanwhile, will surely be lobbying for a 1 1/4-mile turf race for 3-year-olds and up."

make it 14 furlongs or longer and we'd be happy!

Cannon Shell 01-25-2007 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five Star Derek
No wonder this sport has so much trouble attracting new fans.

Have a hard time seeing the correlation between more breeders cup races and fewer new fans

Cannon Shell 01-25-2007 06:24 PM

What about a Breeders Cup 1st time starters race?
Breeders Cup starter handicap?
All Grey Breeders Cup Race?
Breeders Cup optional claimer?

Coach Pants 01-25-2007 06:26 PM

Breeders Cup Yearling Dash 440 yds. Have trained spider monkeys as the jocks.

SniperSB23 01-25-2007 06:29 PM

OK, I was fully in support of the move to 11 races but this is not a good idea at all. Add the Turf Sprint to make it an even 12 and stop right there. If they want to add four G3s for $150,000 so there are 8 races on each day I can deal with that. A 3yo filly race that is G3 will still draw some OK runners without depleting the Distaff. Please, for the sake of the sport, do not go to 16 BC races.

Antitrust32 01-25-2007 06:55 PM

As a fan, adding more BC races will take away from the big day. As a handicapper, adding more races will just add more opportunities to make or lose money. And for the Breeder's/Owner's - $30 million in purses would be awesome. Its not a completely bad decision IMO.

miraja2 01-25-2007 07:36 PM

A juvy race at 6f would probably destroy the existing 8.5 furlong juvy.
In this day and age, most trainers probably don't like pushing their top-level talent beyond a mile at age 2 but many do it in order to try to win a BC race and BC money. If there is a 6f alternative.....who would push to win the 8.5f race? We will end up with six allowance-caliber horses competing in the BC juvenile.
I didn't mind the expansion to 11 (although I don't think they should have added another juvy race) but 16 would be absolutely insane.

Linny 01-25-2007 08:37 PM

I'd be in favor of a BC Starter Sprint so Spooky Mulder could win a "championship."

randallscott35 01-25-2007 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
When you get so much brainpower in one place it's just amazing what can happen.

We had eight or nine for this year's BC Turf.....how exactly are we going to fill the additional 1 1/4 mile race?

One thing is for sure....the BC is hellbent on putting the Claiming Crown out of business. Might be time for Moschera to get back in the game.

Gasper? LOLlllllllllllllllllll

AeWingnut 01-25-2007 08:47 PM

you guys are cracking me up. :D

I'm afraid they are diluting the water with a 16 race BC

tycharles01 01-25-2007 10:21 PM

16 huh now they got room for a

250,000 BC Jockey's Race!!!!:D 250 yards Turf

miraja2 01-26-2007 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tycharles01
16 huh now they got room for a

250,000 BC Jockey's Race!!!!:D 250 yards Turf

Well that would hardly be fair to the jockeys that specialize on dirt or going a route of ground. We will need at least 6 different jockey races to be fair.

horseofcourse 01-26-2007 01:13 PM

What about the 16 furlong dirt race for geldings aged 8 and above??

SniperSB23 01-26-2007 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse
What about the 16 furlong dirt race for geldings aged 8 and above??

I'd honestly prefer they add something like that. If they are going to cheapen the BC races at least do them in ways that won't deplete the existing 11 races. I think a turf sprint is fine but can't see any other races they can add without depleting others. Make those 12 BC races, add four G3s for $250,000 and you'll have a very nice two day card. 16 BC races would be awful.

horseofcourse 01-26-2007 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23
I'd honestly prefer they add something like that. If they are going to cheapen the BC races at least do them in ways that won't deplete the existing 11 races. I think a turf sprint is fine but can't see any other races they can add without depleting others. Make those 12 BC races, add four G3s for $250,000 and you'll have a very nice two day card. 16 BC races would be awful.

I think even the races they added this year are too many. I like the full strong fields on the 8 race cards and even those aren't always full as someone earlier said...the turf this year.

SniperSB23 01-26-2007 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseofcourse
I think even the races they added this year are too many. I like the full strong fields on the 8 race cards and even those aren't always full as someone earlier said...the turf this year.

I think that given time the three additional races would have been a big positive. Two year old turf racing would have drastically improved and we would have seen a lot of stakes winning 3yos that couldn't get ten furlongs actually stick around for the Dirt Mile at the end of the year instead of being retired mid-season. Plus we need a BC race for Sir Greeley and Wanderin Boy. :p Unforunately if the five additional races are added it will just be a giant cluster**** and those races won't have a chance to be established as legit BC races. They'll forever be associated with the downfall of the Breeders Cup.

txshorns02 01-26-2007 02:01 PM

i feel like the turf sprint is a good idea and i sort of like the 1 1/4 turf race is good because of some horses that couldnt make 1 1/2 mile and the mile is to short for them...idk how it will turn out...it might just make everything go down hill

SniperSB23 01-26-2007 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txshorns02
i feel like the turf sprint is a good idea and i sort of like the 1 1/4 turf race is good because of some horses that couldnt make 1 1/2 mile and the mile is to short for them...idk how it will turn out...it might just make everything go down hill

Personally I don't think there is as big a difference between 8 and 12 furlongs on the turf as there is between 6 and 10 furlongs on the dirt. While I think a race in the middle will work on the dirt without causing major dilution to the other two races I don't agree that it would be the case on the turf.

FairPlay 01-26-2007 02:11 PM

Given the miserable ratings on ESPN for the Breeders' Cup, I don't see how expanding the program does anything for the sport. Creating races for all of the niches in racing only dilutes public interest and knowledge in racing. It's like when General Motors starting making full lines of cars within each division instead of just a few cars so that there was a logical progression from Chevy to Pontiac to Olds to Buick to Cadillac. We know how things worked out for GM. Too many divisions is just too complicated for attracting general interest and racing needs some general interest and needs it soon.

If anything, there should only be 4 Breeders' Cup Races: The Sprint, The Turf, the Classic and the Steeplechase and all of the races should not be age or gender restricted. Maybe that way, at least some Eclipse Awards wouldn't be based on a one to four race campaign and juveniles would be given a more appropriate foundation entering their 3 year old seasons.

SniperSB23 01-26-2007 02:18 PM

If 16 races are going to happen and there is nothing we can do then I think this is the best way to spread the 16 races:

Juv
Juv Fillies
Juv Turf
Juv Fillies Turf
Turf Sprint
Turf Mile
Turf
FM Turf Sprint
FM Turf Mile
FM Turf (12 furlongs)
Sprint
Dirt Mile
Classic
FM Sprint
FM Dirt Mile
FM Distaff (10 furlongs)

I don't especially like it but I think it is the best you can do if forced to pick 16 BC races while minimizing races stepping on each others toes. Do we really need a champion female turf sprinter? No. But I'd rather have that race on a 16 race BC program than a race that will steal more horses from another race on the card.

blackthroatedwind 01-27-2007 10:59 AM

The real question is what are the qualifications of new NTRA head Greg Avioli and why is he being given free rein here. The whole thing smacks of some plot hatched by breeders to falsely inflate the value of stallions and broodmares. Who they are fooling, however, I do not know. Perhaps any new buyers getting into the game. But, the simple fact is there are already too many Grade 1 races and all of these have been watered down and savaged by the BC races already. Why creating more, and unnecessary, races somehow elevates the game is beyond me. Where exactly are all the supposed quality horses to fill these races going to come from?

One thing I have gleaned from watching past stakes races on Youtube is how much more legitimate the paces were in those days. Nowadays it seems a 48 half in any distance race, save the Derby and BC races, is borderline contentious. This is undoubtably due to the relative lack of competition in many of these races. As we pile on more and more BC races, and surely dilute the quality of each event, soon those races will be non-competitive as well.

It is high time that racing had someone in a leadership role that didn't have a hidden agenda being fed by those without the true interests of fans in mind. It is also time that somewhere in racing someone with a voice asks some of these questions.....before it is too late. Who is speaking for us?

cmorioles 01-27-2007 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
The real question is what are the qualifications of new NTRA head Greg Avioli and why is he being given free rein here. The whole thing smacks of some plot hatched by breeders to falsely inflate the value of stallions and broodmares. Who they are fooling, however, I do not know. Perhaps any new buyers getting into the game. But, the simple fact is there are already too many Grade 1 races and all of these have been watered down and savaged by the BC races already. Why creating more, and unnecessary, races somehow elevates the game is beyond me. Where exactly are all the supposed quality horses to fill these races going to come from?

One thing I have gleaned from watching past stakes races on Youtube is how much more legitimate the paces were in those days. Nowadays it seems a 48 half in any distance race, save the Derby and BC races, is borderline contentious. This is undoubtably due to the relative lack of competition in many of these races. As we pile on more and more BC races, and surely dilute the quality of each event, soon those races will be non-competitive as well.

It is high time that racing had someone in a leadership role that didn't have a hidden agenda being fed by those without the true interests of fans in mind. It is also time that somewhere in racing someone with a voice asks some of these questions.....before it is too late. Who is speaking for us?

Well said. As usual, nobody is looking out for bettors.

This pace thing is something you rarely hear talked about. I think horses are going slower for a few reasons. One, as you say, is the lack of competition. The other is that the breeding is so sprint oriented these days, it is the only way the horses can get around the track respectably.

It used to be that a fast pace pretty much guaranteed a fast final time in top class competition. This isn't really so anymore. In fact, it is just the opposite.

pgardn 01-27-2007 11:20 AM

1st order of business get rid of all two year old races.

Downthestretch55 01-27-2007 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgardn
1st order of business get rid of all two year old races.

I agree! How about throwing in a quarter horse race or two. And one buggy one too!

Holland Hacker 01-27-2007 12:17 PM

Some times I like to look at things from a different perspective.

What would happen if they ran a "Breeders Cup" race and no body bet on it? Do you think the Breeders Cup Limited would continue the lunacy of adding races?

It seems like everyone here is against the idea of adding races to the BC lineup, what is making you place a wager on them? If nobody wagered on them I bet they would be dropped pretty quickly.

Another possibility is for other tracks to compete with the Breeders Cup. What if another track hosted their own "Festival of Racing" and competed with the BC races. It seems like all of the tracks are afraid of the BC and are rearranging their schedule to avoid conflicts with the BC. Is the Breeeders Cup the only racing permitted at the end of October? Or what if New York went back to their traditional fall racing there certaintly was some great racing in NY in the Fall before the BC.

Remember Seattle Slew & Affirmed's battle in the the Marlboro Cup and the Jockey Club Gold Cup in '18 or Affirmed and Spectacular Bid in the JCGC in '79. Now they were horse races.

Just my two cents.

Travis Stone 01-27-2007 01:08 PM

I think there is legitimate concern regarding the added races, and the proposal of additional races. I think racing should consider a point in time when "enough is enough" and you then focus on your existing product - improving it and making it better.

I also feel this is representative of a larger issue: the general stakes structure in our nation. As stated, there are too many grade one races and the product has been severely dilluted.

I'm a huge proponent of reversed grading. Grade the race after it's carded - not after it's been run - but after the field has been assembled. I think that'd make for a very interesting dynamic at the entry box.


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