Worst DQ of All Time?
 

Tampa 7th today. I get the DQ’d horse came out but there was no contact.

As a bettor I have no faith in really anything anymore as it pertains to horse racing. Dramatic? Yeah. Honest? Hell yeah

Can you post the head on and pan for the incident?

It was the 7th at Tampa today.

What a gross way to lose a race. IMO if the inside had just maintained a straight course outside would have never gotten by.

However, I believe inside did in fact clearly initiate and make contact. You can clearly see outside moved off it's path by about a half lane.

All horses are entitled to a clear and unobstructed path. Given the desperately small margin of victory IMO the Stewards had no choice in the matter and correctly DQ'ed.

In the long and storied history of horse racing there has NEVER been a horse taken down that ran straight.

For a brief few minutes coming up on 17 years ago, I thought the worst DQ of all time was going to be Better Talk Now in the BC Turf. Instead it became one of my favorite races of all time and solidified my love of that horse and Dominguez. Just had to watch it again for old times sake!

I respectfully disagree. I saw no contact. Sure the rider moved out but it was race riding.

I’ve seen horses carry other horses 5-6 paths before with no DQ. The eventual winner was carried out maybe a path, probably less, with no contact.

Bush league call at a bush league track.

The DRF chart calling termed it slight contact. If there was NO contact I think you would always be able to see light between the two horses. Which clearly wasn't there.

You might want to slow it down to super slow mo or even frame by frame. I've seen a whole lot of stretch runs looking for contact. In that race there most definitely was.

Who cares what the chart says? The Tampa chart caller is horrible. Anyone that does replay work will attest that he’s horrible at his job. Chart caller LMAO...

The optics were bad, I get that, but the rider on the runner up didn’t flinch, he just rode all the way through. Wouldn’t he at least have reacted if he was bumped in to?

Either way, no one here can say they haven’t seen MUCH worse stay up almost daily. This was a bad rider getting taken down because the leasing rider claimed foul.

I’m going to compliment you though Vic. You’ve managed to not make this all about you...yet.

Congrats!

Finally got around to watching this. That was a pretty bad DQ. How do you justify something like that to the betting public?

I know that you’ve seen enough races to know that this isn’t true.

I know the optics looked bad but in reality it was just race riding. Just tough watching worse everyday that stays up

The margin was a nose, if even that (literally a bob). There was contact and the 5 was pushed out 1.5-2 paths. The 5 had all the momentum and the 4 would have come down even in the stringent of jurisdictions. I've seen some egregious DQs, but this is a non-story.

1.5-2 paths?

You watch the right race?

My problem with the DQ is that the contact and/or foul is not even really noticeable on the pan shot. I don't see the 5 get slowed or change its stride, so I have trouble believing that what the 4 did actually impacted the 5 or changed the result of the race, even with the small margin. (The flipside to this is, I also don't want to see jockeys exaggerating things to try to sell it to the stewards, which we also see some times and I can't stand.)

I guess the finish is close enough for the steward's the make this call, but I don't agree this would have been a DQ in every racing jurisdiction. I suppose it could be, but steward decisions are inconsistent enough that it's really hard to know how this would have been decided elsewhere.

I dont necessarily agree with the DQ but the four horse moved over multiple paths and made contact with the other runner. I fault the jock on the 4 for not controlling his runner as he was headed straight near the wire but his actions with the reins seemed to move his runner to the right. The left rein is slapping the horses neck. Would the slight contact and the jocks actions weigh in on the stewards ruling? Im just asking, I agree with Moses that this most likely would not be a DQ in most jurisdictions, unless of course, it was the horse I wagered on :rolleyes:

This was a silly DQ and, at best, it's questionable that there was any real contact. The runner up certainly didn't react to anything. I know it's a different track, but a horse was left up in NY a couple of weeks ago that did MUCH more, and the margin at the finish was virtually identical.

Using a chart call to back up an opinion is a slippery slope. Whether or not someone likes the work of any chart caller, trust your eyes, not someone else's.

I get Dahoss's frustration. Most whines about disqualifications are just that...but this seemed like an unnecessary decision. Surely much worse contact happens in many races that gets completely ignored. Why are stretch brushes so much worse than ones in other parts of any race? A turnover in the first quarter of a basketball is possibly as costly as one late in a game.

Because, depending on the severity of the contact, there is the whole race to recover? Or, the other three quarters of the game to make amends for the one mistake? It's not like the incident occurred at the top of the stretch and the 5 had a chance to re-rally but just hung, losing by a couple of lengths. It happened close to the wire and the 5 had all the momentum.

Here are a couple of example excerpts from the HKJC:

You may not agree with the call (as I certainly didn't when I had Tigre du Terre at 140-1 in one of the sickest nose bobs ever), but this is far from the worst DQ ever. Probably not even the worst this year in Florida.

What does a decision at Hong Kong have to do with anything?

Also...weren’t you someone who thought Maximum Security should have stayed up in the Derby? How should he have stayed up but this was an obvious DQ?

I guess my point in all of this is this is a great example of punishing the bettors, where the right thing to do is punish the bonehead rider of the 4 and let the result stand.

Not to mention consistency. We have all seen much worse stay up. Let’s be honest, the game has serious issues with integrity. If a guy like me who is can be rough around the edges but a loyal customer for 25 years is doubting things at this point, what chance do we have with new fans

Not to mention, the notion that a horse has more time to recover from an early foul somehow makes one less egregious is indefensibly moronic. If the horse “recovers” but still falls a few inches short it somehow didn’t affect him but a late one did? That’s such horrifically bad logic it’s hard to believe anyone would endorse it.

The Hong Kong example was disingenuous if a DQ is dependent on the "severity of the contact". The stewards prefaced their decision (conveniently excised) with this:

The Stewards were of the view that this contact was of little consequence.

From the replay, arguably the horse who initiated the contact (INSAYSHABLE) took the worst of it:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1071671801896288257

There is something about people that post about Hong Kong on message boards:-)

Yep, people who appreciate competitive, exciting racing presented by a genuine, non-condescending broadcast crew :-)

You never answered....how can one be against the Maximum Security DQ (where a horse took out multiple runners) but think this was obvious.

I’m genuinely curious about the thought process here.

Because I primarily follow racing that uses "Category 1" rules, whereby the only questions the stewards have to resolve are: did interference occur, and if so, would horse B have finished ahead of horse A had interference not occurred? Based on this, any preposition that War of Will and/or Long Range Toddy would have finished ahead of Maximum Security is nothing but baseless conjecture. Was the interference suffered by WoW more than what happened at Tampa? Yes. Was it enough to cause a 4.5L losing margin? No. WoW lost at most 0.5-1L in that incident. How can you DQ a horse who was much the best because of an incident which cost the horse a quarter of the losing margin? (yes I know MS was placed behind LRT, which was absurd on its own right as that horse was done and everyone knows it)

The TAM result was a headbob and there is a valid argument that without the interference the 5 would have gotten up. Based on the distance between MS and WoW and the loss of lengths suffered with the interference, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that WoW (or LRT) would have finished ahead of MS had interference not occurred.

Yes, the rule in the States is different, but I still don't think it warranted a DQ. LRT was finishing nowhere near the top five, and WoW finished 1.25L from the 5th horse, which is more than the 0.5-1L he lost in that incident.

And yes, Category 1 rules work because jockeys actually get proper suspensions instead of slaps on the wrist.

Yeah that sounds real dumb.

There is no way you can say both WOW and LRT were not cost a better placing because of the interference. They weren’t beating MS, but they were absolutely cost a placing.

You’re essentially saying foul whoever you want, at any point of the race as long as the horses you are fouling weren’t going to beat you anyway.

I guess exacta, trifecta and superficial bettors be damned.

I also strongly disagree the 5 was going by the 4. I’m not big on gallop outs, but the 5 never went by the 4 in the gallop out. If there was interference, why did the horse, nor the jockey react?

The rule reads cost an opportunity of a "better" placing. Not would the horse have finished in front of the one who fouled him. Without the incident could WAR OF WILL have finished in front COUNTRY HOUSE, CODE OF HONOR, TACITUS, IMPROBABLE, GAME WINNER and/or MASTER FENCER? Of course. He was knocked sideways. And of course showed his true unobstructed talent by winning the Preakness. BTW the purse for finishing 5th in the Derby is $90,000.

How can you begin to quantify the amount of damage when getting cross body blocked at the quarter pole of his first ever mile and a quarter race. Just the breath knocked out of him could have cost multiple lengths.

Yours could very well be the most ridiculous, incorrect post I've ever read on any forum.

Complete nonsense!

Really? That statement may be the most extreme exaggeration since someone wrote "Worst DQ of All Time?"

LMAO...still salty, huh?

Good

Apparently you decided to skip over the part where I mentioned IMO neither of these horses were finishing in the top five (i.e., purse money slots). If the rule is written so as to DQ MS because LRT finished 17th instead of 16th, that is the most nonsensical rule I've ever heard of.

MS would not have come down anywhere other than in North America. You can find other jurisdiction's opinions of the matter if you look for it.

The current state of petulance on this forum is absurd. Apparently someone having a different opinion is not acceptable, never mind that also being the opinion of every other major jurisdiction in the world.

Your lack of self awareness is charming

I was always taught to treat others how they treat you :-)

You were right about those that post about Hong Kong on boards. It’s pretty funny actually.

As I've said repeatedly, MS does not get taken down in any other major jurisdiction. No one has to agree with me---that's what an opinion is---but it's not just me you disagree with, it's also some of the most powerful and important people in world racing. But hey, whatever makes you all feel better... I guess if that's not how it's done in the USA then it must be wrong :)

I can understand if you don't like the rule but the race was run in the US and the rules were applied properly for the Maximum Security disqualification. While technically irrelevant to DQ, the fact that his trainer was indicted in relation to doping his horses less than a year after the fact should really have put a nail in the coffin for complaints about the DQ.

It keeps getting better.

I’m still trying to figure out the logic behind being able to foul whoever, whenever as long as the horse you fouled (and cost a better placing) was never goin to beat you.

I don’t care who around the world thinks that makes sense...because it doesn’t.

This too....his re rallying in the final furlong of this and his other races with Servis was mysteriously gone once he went to Baffert.

Coincidence I’m sure.

First off full disclosure I would’ve made a pretty big score of War of Will won the Derby. I also would’ve made a significantly less (4 figure instead of 5) score had Max Security not been taken down. Much as I was not a fan of his I felt you had to use defensively given the trainer.

Point I want to make though...and I realize this thread has been somewhat heated, I swear I’m not trying to be an ass...how exactly is it “baseless conjecture” that WoW could not have finished ahead of Max Security in the derby when sawed off turning for home making what sure seemed like a potential winning move...he then came back to win the Preakness two weeks later and while maybe that wasn’t the best field ever he did beat improbable...

At any rate, my point is, the baseless conjecture seems to be on your part...the conjecture from that Derby is that War of Will wouldn’t have won based on what we will never be able to find out. You sir, in my opinion, are the one making a baseless conjecture...