tha lava man thread....
 

the west coast peeps have been very quiet about the lava man....hmmm..i tossed him first...hes a game horse and no disrespect but why did they bring him to that dance..hell he would have run better in the mile..

I liked him, I thought the whole shipping thing was off course, because he looked like he was going bad before he shipped...

they took him to keenland i heard..and he didnt like the change .then churchill...how about right to churchill and let him get used to it,,,,

I respect Lave Man as a game, talented horse who will NOT run well outside of his home environment...

Let him at least finish before we start talking about him.

I liked him a lot. He was training great. :o

I wonder why he can't travel, General Challenge was like that...It's not like he's just winning at one track out there, he's won at Hollywood, Santa Anita, and Del Mar and maybe some others that I am missing...Those can't all be similar surfaces, not to mention he's won on turf...

Wait, why did they bring him to the Big Dance? Why wouldn't they?

Well, he won four grade 1s, three million-dollar races and is currently the all-time leading Cal-bred. Shipping out aside, it wasn't like anyone wanted to come in to California and face him over his home track. You'd think a million bucks would be enough incentive, but the truth is nobody wanted to face him here. And not to make excuses, but I gave him every benefit of the doubt for his three previous clunkers outside of California. Not so much now, but before it was definitely debatable.

My take? California horses spend a lot of time shipping East yet Eastern horses rarely come West. Why is that? And no lame excuses like the tracks are faster here. Plenty of speedy types race on the Right Coast and Cali-based horses still beat them straight up. If anything you'd think that when Cali horses ship they'd find the "deeper" tracks a hurdle.

But that's just me...

As soon as I saw his dull coat I tossed him.

Lava Man is a notorious stallrunner.. When he leaves home, he'll pace and run the stall endlessly. It's just his make up. He's not comfortable in unfamiliar surroundings and frets at the upheaval. No way to cure that in the midst of a racing career, and no way to get one to perform his best if he has that composition.. The horse handlers here can better expand on this...

Thus the dull coat!

He is such a good story. He is good for racing. Gives people like me the hope that one day we can get our hands on a Lava Man.

As it was told to me, he settled in pretty well at Keeneland from the minute he got there. And, truth be told, he's shipped all over the Southern California area (won at three different tracks) so he's conquered his stall running before. I've only stood outside his stall a half-dozen times or so and he was sleeping every time, once pretty soon after he shipped in to Santa Anita. So maybe the stallrunning is just who he is and not really a symptom of the whole shipping thing.

And the only person I truly trust in judging horseflesh who I know watched him a lot over his whole tenure with Doug O'Neill said he saw two completely different animals between the one training at Keeneland and the one who was at Churchill. He saw him the day he left for Louisville and again the following Thursday and said he thought to himself, "uh oh..."

He did look good at Keeneland. At Churchill he looked awful. Not sure what happened but he didnt look like the same horse at all.

Well it was a$$-freezing cold for like two weeks leading up to BC Day, so I'm thinking that had a lot to do with a lot of it.

However, some horses just "fur up" at the first sign of chilly weather. I had a horse (a nice hunter, too) that would get all fuzzy the minute the California climate dare even threaten to dip below 60 degrees! Out here, for example, I see lots of still short coats and others that have already been body clipped. Of course nobody expected the Indian Summer we've had for the past few days, but when it was cooler some got furry and some didn't. And no, I don't think it has anything to do with the quality of the help. Some of the fuzzy ones came out of some of the most reputable (and well-blanketed, mind you) barns.

In Lava Man's case, I think he didn't like Louisville...

Got it. Excuses for Lava Man are perfectly acceptable, but none for Bernardini.

Because it's a completely different element. You might as well call California racing something other than "thoroughbred," because for years, Cali form has been as exclusive as Polytrack form is today. Some horses love it out there, and those who do can't run anywhere else (i.e. Lava Man), and some horses hate it out there.

I didn't think you were being an a$$ at all... I was kinda trying to figure out why the coats were dull. I don't know at all, I never saw them. I took your word for it! :)

I didn't make any excuses for anyone. I thought Bernardini ran his eyeballs out and did a damn good job doing it. I wasn't a fan at all before the BC, but I am now. As for Lava Man, I don't think he has any excuses whatsoever. Pointing out he was supposedly training great at Keeneland and not at Churchill wasn't any kind of commentary about shipping either. There's no guarantee he'd have raced well at Keeneland at all. I was just told by someone I trust that he didn't look so hot at Churchill compared to how he looked at Keeneland.

And why is California racing something other than Thoroughbred? Personally I think that's a ridiculous statement. Form out here isn't exclusive whatsoever. All kinds of our horses ship out East and win. All kinds! And over the dirt and now polytrack, in places like Keeneland. Not so many come out here and win, however. Including a reigning Horse of the Year, may he rest in peace.

I think the amount of California horses who ship East and win is about the same as the amount who ship out there and win, and neither of those amounts are very high.

Besides Too Much Bling, I can't think of many California DIRT horses who shipped out here and consistently did well this past year.

i give them props for trying, unlike some peeps...cough cough silver train cough.

Off the top of my head... Pu$$ycat Doll, Midnite Lute, Behaving Badly (second, but OH so close), Great Hunter, and the list goes on... don't even get me started on 2005!

Can't think of one horse who came here and won, however.

I said CONSISTENTLY did well, not won one slow race on Polyturf.

And you're missing my point. It's not a East Coast ships West vs. West Coast ships East thing. My point is that it's a completely different type of racing out West.

Wait, how do you figure I'm not getting your point? Of course there's a different kind of racing out here just as there's a different kind of racing in, say, Florida or Louisiana. What I'm not getting is why you're taking issue with the Easterners shipping West vs. the Westerners shipping East.

It's a documented fact that, at least for the last decade and perhaps longer, far more horses from California have shipped and won than vice versa. If the racing is as superior, as I think you're alluding to, then you'd think more horses would be coming out here to steal our million-dollar races. It just doesn't happen.

But back to Lava Man... he obviously changes the minute his toes step in the airplane because he's shipped all over So Cal. Why? I have no idea. I'm sure if I knew I'd be Doug O'Neill's new best friend!

Well, I'm not all over the past decade, but just in the last few years? The reason there have been far more West Coast shippers winning out here? Because nobody here ships out there! Why do you think that is? The money's just as good.. It's gotta be that it takes a special kind of horse to run on those speedways like they run on the dirt out here.

And you aren't getting my point, because my point is that shipping from NY to KY or KY to NY or NY to FL or FL to KY, etc. is much easier than shipping from NY to CA because there are two types of racing. NY, KY, FL (I would've said IL before all those breakdowns), etc. and CA.

If you think I'm wrong, then you come up with a better reason why East Coast owners and trainers largely refuse to go out West.

They don't come out here because they get their butts kicked virtually every time...

Two names off the top of my head? Happy Ticket and Perfect Drift. Do you really want me to continue?

That's why I'm a huge Wait a While fan. She not only did it, she did it twice. Oh and Todd Pletcher, too. When he ships 'em, they're ready to run! And he's had some success aside from Wait a While. Remember Texas Glitter? Of course they're both turfers, but still...

I want to know what the difference is between shipping from CA to NY and shipping from NY to CA? Answer: nothing. California horses seem to do it all the time while when NY horses dare do it, which is rarely because they know better, they typically get their a$$es kicked.

It's a fact! Hell, more foreign horses ship here and win than NY (and, possibly, KY) horses!

A major reason you will have more CA horses shipping to NY for big races than NY horses to CA is the prestige of the races. The races in NY simply mean more to breeders than the races in California. There are VERY few races that matter at that end that are run in California.

I don't follow CA racing but like many I've watched LM's races. I've gone back and watched the replays as well. Anyway, I've never seen him up close or spent any time around him. Even if I did, I am not a trainer and can't really say anything from that perspective.

However -- aside from all the other obstacles mentioned, don't some think that this was compounded by the bute issue, or in this case lack of?

In CA, don't they allow raceday bute? Not in KY -- right?

Eric

Point very well taken. I know the Strub has been compromised by the Sunshine Millions in a BIG way. However, with that said, it surprises me how many with breeding in mind do go the Sunshine Millions route for the big money. I know with every ounce of my being that the connections of Southern Image were always thinking about a solid stallion career for him, which is why they brought him back after such a lengthy layoff. And he won the Sunshine Millions!

What's the difference between the Sunshine Millions Classic and the Pacific Classic when it comes to a million bucks?

The P Classic is a Grade 1 and has a bit more prestige. However, it is just over 20 years old and was created for the ARCS. It doesn't carry the weight that races like the Suburban, Whitney, Woodward and JCGC carry. Or the Stephen Foster for that matter.

I really tought Lava Man was going to run big in the Classic because of the way he was training at Hollywood. When Euro said he looked great in Keenland I really , really thought he was going to show what he's made of, but then I saw him before the race that he was focused on the crowd. I could tell he was different than at home. Lava Man is not a shipper and that's that. Too bad because I would of Loved to seen the big three rolling to the wire.

Well, there's also the Big 'Cap, which is still a million. Arguably as much prestige as the races you've mentioned.

Sad about the Gold Cup, really. Used to be such a big race!

The Big Cap is a big race. It's been around a long time.

Thank you.

I would guess that there is a simple reason that more horses ship towards the east to race. It's because that is where the majority big race opportunities are. If you're based in the east there is usually no need to go all the way out west to find a race. It's not because they get their but kicked everytime when horses go out west.

I think it's a number of reasons. First, everyone knows but hates to admit that there is a media bias towards the East Coast. There are far more major media markets on the East and the majority of the population of our country lives east of the Mississippi. Nine times out of 10, if u have a horse that wins the Suburban, Whitney, and JCGC vs. a horse that wins the SA Hcp, Hollywood Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic, the Eastern one will be considered the better horse. That's just the way it is. A Vosburgh winner will be considered better than an Ancient Title winner. A Turf Classic winner will be considered better than an Oak Tree Invitational winner. The list could go on and on.

Second is that there is a different tempo to the racing out here in California than there is back east. Out here, if u don't have speed, u can forget it. It's the name of the game here. U can run in Florida or NY and have 23, 47 speed in routes and be a lone front runner. U bring that out here and u will find yourself with plenty of company on the lead at best and at worst, five lengths back. I don't think that many trainers or horses are prepared for the faster tempo of racing here and they get caught with their pants down.

Third, as BTW alluded to, is the prestige of the races. Many of those big NY races are 100 years old or so and they have far more prestige in them than the races out here. There is more prestige to winning a race at Saratoga than anywhere else in the country. Ask 100 owners would they rather win the $1 million Delaware Hcp or the Go for Wand at Saratoga worth less than half of that amount and I'd bet u would get at least 80% in favor of the GfW. If the choice is between the GfW and the Hirsch at Del Mar, it might be 90% in favor of the GfW.

I really hope that if O'Neil ever wants to run him in the BC again,
they run in the BC Turf.
he will run 12f and if you get a weak group of Euros, he can win or run very competitively in that race.

the idea that he is ever going to win a BCC against the top east coast handicappers on any track outside of CA is just a little crazy.



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