Dubbya continues to amaze
 

I don't know if anyone heard his radio address today wherein he accused Iraquis for attempting to effect the outcome of the upcoming elections with their "propaganda". Like they are to blame for the policies of the past three years and it's totally their fault that they resist occupation.
I'll continue to declare, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!"
Let's hang a big banner on the side of an aircraft carrier as we run to the hardware store to buy duct tape...then come home to watch Repub tv commercials blaming the Dems for not catching Osama bin Laden.
Propaganda...INDEED! Where ya been for the past six years?
"We will win, we will stabalize the democracy there".

Play the fools Dubbya. Maybe Foley, Ney or Delay can spin it better for ya than Rove this time. I ain't buyin!
Iraq is lost. Admit it.
So is Afghanistan. Admit that too.
And, we are all so safe. Look at how good a job the DEA does preventing illegal drugs from crossing the borders...yeah right!

Oh look!!! The wolf is coming! the wolf is coming! Believe me this time!

This is too sad to be funny anymore.
The mess on the floor isn't the product of my dog.
It's yours Dubbya.
Sure it stinks, but ya can't blame that foul smell on anyone else but yourself.
Nice try!

May the USA recover quickly from the disasters you've created. It was a great country...until you came along.

It still is a great country. I can't stand the President, but I can't stand the people that root against our country either. It is almost as disgusting as a president lying all the time.

I hate to say it, but your post has all the signs of a person that is a divider not a uniter. You people that choose sides disgust me. It is almost like you care more about your party than your country.

How anyone can be a registered democrat or republican is beyond me. People need to learn to think for themselves.

Myopic view=myopic views!

Revo:

1) I agree that the USA is a great country. I really DO love the USA.
That's why I post regarding the tragedy that's been inflicted upon it.
2) I am not a divider. I don't set policy. Wish I did, cuase if they'd have listened to my "take", we wouldn't have gone into a "war of choice" about three years ago.
3) I don't lie. The reality is that I love truth. If calling out manipulation for what it is disturbs you or others, too bad. Pull the blanket back over your head, but don't accuse me for attempting to show some reality.
4) I am neither a registered Republican nor a Democrat. I'm an Independent.
In that regard, I agree with you. It's about time people start to become informed and start to think for themselves. There's no longer the need to buy the lies.
5) I own no party, and no party owns me. I'm just advocating "free speech" and hoping that others see through the charade that's currently offerred. the stakes are very high. Remember habeus corpus? Bill of Rights? Though some has been taken, more will be if people just nod their heads and agree that it's ok...
As Timm G would say, "freedom isn't free". I agree. It was bought with real blood.
If we allow others to delude us to the point that those freedoms have no meaning, we disregard the sacrifices that so many have made to provide them for us all.
6) I posted my views not from a position of "hate". Rather, I have continued to speak about what I believe exacly because I DO love this great country, and can't stand to be silent about the actions of those that are doing their best to destroy it and everything it represents.
Truth is good.

Revolution, I didn't see anything in DTS's post that was ranting against the US-- it was ranting against the war in Iraq and our failure in Afghanistan and our failure in stopping drugs coming into the country-- how is that ranting against the USA itself? If people weren't willing to stand up and say, "This is for sh*t" we'd have no workplace protections, blacks and women and non-property owners wouldn't be voting and industrial corporations would still be legally dumping toxins into rivers (legally, anyway). Dissent is one of the most patriotic things a person can do-- to say, "I love my nation, but current policy is wrong." Blind acceptance of our government is dangerous and wrong. And I know you hardly blinding accept anything (and good for you!) but nothing DTS said was anti-American.

We have f*cked up in Iraq. Monumentally. The current administration has taken away habeus corpus, mortgaged our financial future, handed power to corporations and religious zealouts and is dictating morality as health policy. How is standing up and saying, "This is wrong" being UnAmerican? It seems to me that saying "This is for sh*t" is the most patriotic thing people who really love the ideals for which America is supposed to stand can do. Right now this nation is not an honorable beacon of freedom to the world; it's an overbearing bully that won't even bother to clean up its own messes. And I'm American enough to be ashamed about it.

Love your posts, though (and yours, Timm; even though we disagree politically a lot)-- I'm always happy with how civil discourse can stay here. Makes it fun to debate and discuss and I usually learn something new. :) Thanks, guys.

All right-- after reading Rolling Stone's cover story this month I'm starting to rethink my position that the Dems aren't getting anything done because they're spineless p*ssies-- it appears the Republican-controlled Congress has been merrily breaking centuries of tradition to keep them disenfranchised. Here's the link, everyone-- I think it's a really important, scary article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._congress_ever

Stop it. The Democrats are spineless pussies. Stop making excuses. The Republicans are atrocious, the Democrats just terrible. They are all losers. Nancy Pelosi is just as out of touch with America as George Bush. Let's put a liberal elitist from San Francisco in charge of the House. Brilliant. Harry Reid is just as corrupt as Bill Frist. Hillary Clinton is just a big a liar as any Republican.

A third party is the only solution.

As for DTS's original comment, I take issue with his last sentence, which insinuates that America is no longer great. I find it hard to believe DTS is an independent too when he is reading commondreams.com. That garbage is just as bad as Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. They are all dividers who defend their people no matter what in order to make a buck or advance their careers. There are no Thomas Paines today. Even ThomasPaine.com is garbage.

i thought threads were started to generate discussion, hopefully of the intelligent kind.

it's amazing to me that people here can talk about different things--and those who agree with each other are so smart. but then that person doesn't agree with something else, and suddenly they're so dumb.

amazing, truly.

and i think comments that say those in disagreement are 'naive, have a blanket over their head, don't want to know the truth, etc' are incredibly pompous. certainly isn't something that will add to the discussion.

This is so true for many people, thus the politicians they vote for align themselves. Get more money for MY state Mr. Representative, and I will vote for you. To heck with what it does to the country as a whole. I realize the system was set up this way, but its bad stuff.

And it is terribly clear to me that people do wish for failure so that their party can get into power. Democrats and Republicans both. It is sickening.

When we went into Afghanistan, there were hardly any dissenters in this country. Europe and most of the world was behind us. But when things go bad... its bail out time. I cant remember the votes exactly in the Senate and House, but the Senate was single digits against Afgahnistan, and the House was double digits against. It was overwhelmingly in favor of going after Osama Bin Laden in a Country with a government (read the Taliban) that said they would protect him, and basically what happened on 9/11 was proper punishment.

Iraq was of course very convoluted. WMD's... None. So now what are you going to do... And the country as a whole was convinced there were weapons. The Democrats saw most of the same information as the president and they believed. In fact I dont remember anyone saying there are clearly NO weapons of mass destruction. We had just been hit... People forget the situation at the time decisions were made. They just see the problems at present and then play a blame game.

The major mistake made militarily in Iraq is clear NOW. We did not send nearly enough troops to stabilize the country. Why? Because we were more interested in finding and destroying weapons that were not present. And we did not realize the brutal mastery of the Iraqi people by Saddam Hussein kept ethnic and religious differences at bay. We opened a can of worms, so now we bail out...?

Political parties today are nothing more than pawns for big corporations. It amazes me how people that are in uncompetitive races feel a need to raise $20M from big business to run against nobody. Why anyone would be a registred member of one today is beyond me.

Anybody that believes corporations aren't getting something in return for their money is a moron.

This is how elections should be funded. Bill Bradley, Bob Kerry, Warren Rudman and Alan Simpson have a great organization.

http://www.just6dollars.org/

Pgardn,
Thank you for bringing this thread back to "topic".
I've had enough of the insults (myopic= lacking knowledge, foresight), and attempting to "box" someone's opinions by discussing the individual rather than the issues presented.
That said, I disagree with two of your points.
1) Regarding Afghanistan, US troops were redirected to Iraq following Tora Bora. Currently, the Taliban is regaining strength. Karzai is called the "mayor of Kabul" because outside of his limited sphere, the country is in disarray.
2) Prior to the invasion of Iraq, there were UN inspectors attempting to locate the wmd's under the direction of Hans Blix. Powell presented the claim that there was "yellow cake" and the centerfuge tubes to the UN. This claim has proven to be unfounded.

So, to answer your question, do we "bail out?"
Unfortunately, our options are very limited at this point. Even though we've heard "stay the course" for quite a while, it seems that the administration is rethinking that strategy.
In my view, the US military will have difficulty containing a civil war. That had never been the objective and only calls attention to the lack of planning, lack of execution, and lack of disengagement options.
Some will label the idea of strategic redeployment as "cut and run". The situation is far more complex than that (but those words play well).
If you can suggest a better option, please share.

Pgardn, with no disrespect, 'cause I think you're frighteningly intelligent, I think the Bush cabal didn't let out information about Iraq that contradicted what they wanted to do, so saying the Dems had the same info isn't really true-- they had the same info the public had, but it wasn't the truth; it was massaged and misrepresented. Bush was asking two days after 9/11 if it could be pinned on Saddam and it's no secret his crew wanted to topple Saddam long before 9/11. We were lied to; I don't know how else one can view it now.

Guys, seriously, read the Rolling Stone article. I promise it's an entertaining read, though it's going to infuriate you (check out the grammar of the one former Rep writing from jail). I'm not letting Dems off the hook-- note where they stood in bi-partisanship by the 1990's, but just because both sides have done it doesn't make it right.

Revolution, I'd like a third party, too, but first and foremost, we've got to get rid of the single-party control of all three wings of gov't, for the sake of our own nation's health and security, and our last chance to do that before '08 is coming up fast.

Vote for Big Oil and Jesus. If you don't then the terrorists will attack us!! OoOoooOOo!!!

Genuine Risk,
Thanks for sharing the article. Very informative. Page 6 was especially chilling.
Do you know why GW has only issued one veto? Might be worth googling his executive modifications, and also the one and only veto he used.
The shame of it all is that some would rather attack ME for my views, rather than presenting meaningful dialogue on the shameful actions of a government that negates the very beliefs that we all should hold most dear.
DTS

Pillow,
I have no problem at all with Jesus..."Blessed are the peacemakers..."
As far as oil...well, it seems that He was annointed with oil.
Not Cheney's nor other "energy interests".
Jesus also spoke well against deceit.
Read about it.

And for Revolution,
Here's an article that speaks to the topic that I think you and I can agree on.
It speaks to the "erosion of public confidence".

http://www.yaledailynews.com/Article...rticleID=33793

I was mocking Bush. Thanks.

Pillow,
That's fine with me.
Heck, when foreign policy is centered on expecting the "rapture", there's no need to do much else but wait for it.

btw, the flip side of "Blessed are the peacemakers" is...cursed are the war mongers.
The decisions are yours. I won't judge.
That will be decided at a later time...and not by me.

Pay attention as to how this "diplomat's" words get spun.
Not much more will amaze...

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L22772920.htm

GR with all due respect I am not frighteningly intelligent. I am curious.

Secondly, you may be right about the info. But I believe given what I have read that GW really did believe the Iraqi's had WMD's. I dont think he tried to cook it up. At that time, the Iraqi's would not let the UN do the work they were asked to do. DTS: The inspectors were constantly harassed, misled, lied ot, time after time. People forget that they were being extremely uncooperative. What were we supposed to think? I talked to many people that keep up intensively with this stuff, and not one of them said it is very clear Iraq does not have WMD's. The question for them was do we really need to go in and get them, how far along are they... they cant have nuclear weapons (we think) but the biological potential scared them to death. Remember all the powders and inspections in Congress and elsewhere? And biological weapons do not take the large facilities that nukes take. We as a country were very scared. I remember that clearly. So the decision was made.

Now, no matter what the Bush administration says, we have a Civil War. But there are some very interesting things that have happened. So many Iraqi's are killing each other at this point, that the "war lords" of all of these different factions are now actually making contact with US representatives asking them to stay. The foreign groups (outside Iraq) are not. In fact one of the guys that we had a hit out on has contacted US representatives for negotiations. Sad to say, but so many innocent people on all sides of this very complex situation are dying and its starting to hurt. My feeling is that there is the possibility they may tire of having innocent relatives butchered. I think there is still a chance some sort of arrangement can be made. The parties that were thriving with the chaos, are not anymore. Shiites are even splitting and fighting each other. It is a Civil War. And we have to give it a chance to die. There are too many indicators, however small, that all these factions are getting tired of having their own slaughtered. Its no longer just pot shot civilians, these violent groups are now feeling the real sting.

I just hate seeing Americans die for this. But we caused this mess by getting rid of the tyrant that caged them, executed innocent people to keep order. Huge lessons have been learned by all. The hard way.

DTS: saying you were myopic wasn't intended as an insult,and truth be told, you know it. We banter back and forth,but that's it. It does bother me somewhat that you'll let something go by for awhile and then add it as fuel later on. example: me calling you a flamer and you joyfully accepting the title, and then acting all indignant when we were in another hot debate! Playing the victim doesnt suit you...you have too much info(skewed as it is):)

Bring back Will Ferrell!

Lets see: we say SH has WMD...we wait for the useless and often complicit UN to allow us to go look for then,AFTER 8 MONTHS, and Damn if those RASCALLY Bush warmongers didn't lie to us again! YOU could move MONTANA in 8 months,let alone WMD's! It's really that clear.

"It is a Civil War. And we have to give it a chance to die. There are too many indicators, however small, that all these factions are getting tired of having their own slaughtered. Its no longer just pot shot civilians, these violent groups are now feeling the real sting.

I just hate seeing Americans die for this. But we caused this mess by getting rid of the tyrant that caged them, executed innocent people to keep order. Huge lessons have been learned by all. The hard way."

Pgardn,
I agree. It got tired a long while ago. I also hate seeing Americans die for this. Over 2800 and counting. The wounded? Over 11,000. (Ours).
These are just kids that wanted to serve our country and do their duty.
Most of the "middle class" in Iraq (1.4 million) are running for the borders to seek sanctuary somewhere else. So, even when it's over, hopefully someday soon, there will be few dentists, teachers, business owners. They're running for their lives. Innocent victims of insanity??? Yup...but not Saddam's.
Huge lessons...need to be relearned for those that were ignorant regarding prior lessons.
Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?
Our actions have spoken louder than our words.
Such a shame.
Guess that's what we get for allowing madmen to run it for us. It reminds me of the Nixon years...or dare I say...1933 Germany.
Very sad. Very.
I anquish for all the families, not only the American ones, that have paid a high price for believing in this game that offers no "do overs".
We bought it. We own it.
God help us all.

Dts just to clarify you would rather have saddam still running things then us removing him right?

Skippy,
We could have waited. That said, it doesn't address the "now".

Now, I know I'll get bashed big time for posting this link, but please do me a favor...read it first, bash me later.


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1022-26.htm

Well said.

I fear nothing will change until the lobbyists are booted out of Washington.

Is there any question as to why the rest of the Earth's nations no longer believe in our "good intentions"?


DTS. The intentions were to protect ourselves. I really believe this. The fear after 9/11 was palatable. We forget the mindset at the time. We were scared to death that we would be attacked with biological weapons, airplanes, trains, automobiles. Dont you remember being checked at any event that involved a large number of people. Tiny Retama Park was patting people down. We cannot just look at the situation at the present if we hope to learn. You have to remember the current mood at the time the decisions were made.

I dont really dont believe France, Germany, Russia, China, North Korea care that much about our National Security. We are the big dog. They have their own problems. They dont see us as being a target. Just as they dont see Israel's retaliation when its citizens get rocketed almost everyday from Gaza. Maybe they did not understand the panic in this country since they have experienced years of terrorism (except China). Maybe they thought we overreacted to having two jets slam into two icons of our country killing 3000 people (could have been a lot more) in an instant.

BTW...President Lincoln suspended 'habeus corpus' and Bush should do the same! I don't hear any Liberals berating Lincoln!! Which means,incidentally that Presidential precedent had been set. So much for Bush being a cowboy!:D

Pgardn.
It's the same exact tactics. Same thing. Different "war", but exactly the same buttons to push.
I sat in traffic for four hours on the NJ turnpike because an "orange alert" had been issued. 100+ degrees for all that time for a bogus attempt to scare us.
It's the same kind of "thinking" that claims they'll be coming here, despite the fact that they don't own a navy nor an air force.
Can't you see that we are being played?
Let's remember the honest words..."We have nothing to fear but fear itself!"
Have you noticed how many here have bashed me without bothering to read the articles I've posted? I'm still waiting for anything that's disputable to be brought forth. Other than that, this remains what it is...horse s-it.
I'm not afraid of it in the least. I wear barn boots all the time and hose them off when the day is done. There's nothing to be afraid of...
especially when speaking truth.
Here's a final thought. I don't need any protection when I'm near the bee hives, unless I go over and take the top off of their hive and stir them up.

Read the articles I've put up. Genuine Risk's "Rolling Stone" article too.

The real shame is that some would rather remain blind due to their fears than stand strong because they refuse to be cowed.
Unpatriotic???....naw...that's what once made our country great.

Let's see,DTS, that's 3 posts of mine that you've ignored! Am I on your list? I never bash you...you just go off on a tangent and spot a conspiracy against the American people about once a week! I've read your commondreams stuff, and most of it is myopic and spun tighter than cotton candy! I need to take care of some things NOW,but I'll finish responding later! BTW...what did you have for dinner?

Timm,
I'm not ignoring you. I just haven't seen you put up anything other than your "myopic" word. Either you got a new dictionary or find the need to use the word frequently...hence my nonresponse.
Do you have anything to bring to the discussion besides Lincoln and insults?
If so, put them out.
If not, carry on being myopic.

btw, I had chicken and biscuits for dinner, peas on the side. You?

I believe there is a lot to be afraid of. We live in a time in which one willing human can do damage to thousands of others in an instant. Technology is way ahead of morality. I want to know where enriched Plutonium is, I want to know who has the rockets able to deliver payloads of explosives; we have to know these things. This is not the Civil War era were one person did not have the capablity of killing massive numbers of people. This is a new world. The technology of killing is not the same. You have got to recognize this.

Well 650,000 men died in the Civil War, millions die in wars in Africa, millions more starve every single year. So I guess you are concerned about millions of wealthy people dying from a nuclear weapon. You could kill a billion people and that would leave us with 5 billion more.

Today is no different than any other time. Diseases have just been replaced by weapons.

Commondreams is the equivalent to Fox News. Just garbage propaganda.

DTS: Kindly refer to posts 20,22, and 33! I didn't bash you and what insults are you talking about? I mentioned previous discourse we've had and some of the results. I'm still researching the hab corp deal(the Prez doesn't have carte blanche). I'll be back...haven't eaten yet..World Serious is on...TTYL

DTS i won't ever bash you for your opinions i may disagree strongly with them but I will never attack you personally. That being said I read your article. I just don't agree with most of it. Bush was going to get screwed either way. if we waited and saddam dropped his bombs somewhere 3 years down the road, the nation would have been up in arms about his lack of foresight to protect his country. Just because we haven't found WMD's doesn't mean they didn't exist. Maybe he had them, maybe he didn't we will never know. We can all suppose we know(we both suppose diffrent outcomes) but honestly the only people that know would be saddam and his officers. Beyond that, bush made a mistake with the battle plan and unfortunatly we are stuck with it. The democrats would go ape crazy if he asked for 400,000 more troops to go fix the job. I think that the american political party landscape has really skewed his options. We as americans and esp politicians are more concerned with saving face with the people and winning voters then actually solving the problems we face. Too much finger pointing.

Skippy, the American PEOPLE would go crazy if Bush "asked for" 400,000 more soldiers, which quite frankly is about the number needed to have any chance of stabilizing Iraq. It's not the Dems. Read the Rolling Stone article-- not only do they have no power in gov't now, they don't even get to be at the debates over legislation. To really stabilize Iraq would mean bringing back the draft. Fat chance; Americans make a lot of noise about sacrifice, but it's usually someone else's sacrifice. If the draft were brought back, we'd pull out of Iraq in six months because Americans would go ape crazy at the thought of their kids being sent overseas. Most of these chicken hawks in Bush's gov't never served themselves; you think the average American is eager to serve?

Timm, the reason you don't read about liberals yelling today about Lincoln suspending habeus corpus is, oh, because it happened 140 YEARS AGO! And it was wrong then; virtually every historical account I've read about Lincoln's presidency say it was a mistake. And it's wrong now. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pgardn-- smart AND modest! Tee hee. :) Though I think Bush only saw the info he wanted to see and willfully ignored the rest and also hid the rest from those who might contradict what he wanted to do.

isnt it cool that President Bush can be wrong about things and there is NOTHING the dems can do about it.

thats the advantage of being a WINNER, and not a LOSER like the members of the democratic party.


Repent

GR: Of course liberals aren't going to bring up Lincoln, because that would legitimize Bushs' course, as it would provide a Presidential Precedent! None of this infringes on Americas' Rights....as it is defined by 'enemy combatant'. As I said, I haven't finished my research on 'habeus corpus' and what this bill details.

Timm, "Presidential" Presidents (whatever that means) screw up, too. And Lincoln screwed up when he suspended habeus corpus. Just as FDR screwed up when he authorized internment camps (and I love FDR. But that was a stupid, wrong decision).

Timm, if you were to be picked up off the street and jailed as an enemy combatant, under the new laws, how on earth are you going to convince anyone that they are wrong; that you are a US citizen, seeing as how you won't be given access to any sort of legal counsel, or even told the charges against you? Under the current laws, it's entirely within the bounds of possibility that American citizens could be "accidentally" jailed for years and years without any access to any sort of legal recourse.

You think that won't happen? Look at how we liberals get called terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, traitors, etc., etc. anytime we suggest Bush isn't the direct voice of Jesus. Which I find so interesting, seeing as how the major homegrown terrorists in the US have all been right-wingers and religious zealots. McVeigh, the Atlanta bomber, Waco-- the things these men stand for fall squarely in the "right-wing" category.

And the scandals that have truly hurt the nations long-term economic health have been waged by Republican captialists-- the savings and loan scandal, Enron, WorldCom. And don't get me started on Iran contra. And yet liberals, liberals, are the ones hurting our nation?

You think, with the Republicans current election slogan of "Vote for the Democrats and die" that the nuts in charge won't see fit to "accidentally" jail people who disagree with them, keeping them locked up for years without access to counsel or charges brought against them? Wake up!

It's up to you Republicans to reclaim your party, but when you regard your party as a sports team, like Repent does (what's up with that "winner" and "loser" stuff?) Go back to the sports page, Repent. ;) you all seem willing to merrily ignore what your party has become and can convince yourself that a hummer in the Lincoln bedroom is more important than going to war, WAR, on maniupulated intelligence. Wha?

Whew. Okay. Rant over. Not, of course, directed at anyone here, 'cause I likes you all. :)