The envelope, please
 

Who, in your opinion, wins the award for...

Most overrated horse of the year?

Underrated?

Most overrated jock of the year?

Underrated?

Deja Vu !
I think the first criteria is who is doing the rating.
So depending on who is rating the horse to begin with the answer will vary.
To play it safe I'll say Zenyatta is both the most over rated and under rated horse.

you know what?


you are right, i agree!

How the flying hell is Zenyatta underrated? And don't give me the straw man argument that people who don't worship her totally always say that she sucks and she's a rat and a big doodiehead.

Overrated horse - Quality Road, honorable mention Sidney's Candy
Underrated horse - Majesticperfection
Overrated jockey - Jose Lezcano/Calvin Borel outside of CD
Underrated - Joel Rosario

This is a pretty horrible list. Quality Road had the best year of any older male in the country other then Blame. A nose seperated them at Toga. Sidneys Candy was 5-1 in his BC race and was a total freak today. He is the goods, not sure who made him out to be that much better then he is.
Who said Lezcano was good? Borel won the Derby. Saying outside of CD is not fair, its his home track, he has made a career there.
Majesticperfection is the best sprinter we had and still could win the Eclipse. He has been hurt for 6 months, why should anyone talk about him now? I dont think many people would say Big Drama is better then him, because he is not. MP was the best sprinter this year hands down, and I have not heard read much different. I have never heard anyone say he stinks or talk him down. Rosario is the best jockey in California, who in the past few years has said other?

Okay that was actually a good one.

Ummm... NTamm is the only one who answered the questions!

Fair enough. I just meant he answered them without putting his own spin on them... straighforward.

Alright though, you answered too. No need to act like a prima donna.

Well considering I'm a dimwit? Yes, it figures.

Therefore he's not overrated. Well done.

Overrated Horse -- Zenyatta -- Went up against 1 solid field all year and lost.

Underrated Horse -- Goldikova -- The BEST horse we have seen in a long time and she does not get the limelight and media that she deserves on this side of the pond.

Overrated Jockey -- Ramon Dominguez -- Rides a lot fo good horses in NY, but does not do much in the big ones

Underrated Jockey -- Calvin Borel -- Obviously rides big on the biggest stages. He would never be mentioned in any conversation regarding best jockeys

Is this Gales? If not are you a member of that PBKC?

I don't know what you are talking about....just a horse racing fan with an opinion

There is someone else on this board (who has actually been absent for a while) who seems to have a personal grudge with Ramon. Any time Ramon gives a poor ride, he is here huffing and puffing about him being over rated. Then he goes on a rampage about the lack of wins that Ramon has on big days.

I think the guy is very talented. Obviously he gets good mounts in NY and that helps. But what about some of the bad mounts that he seems to get in many of the big races and then gets ragged on for not winning with them?

I think he is good too, but I feel that he should have better finishes on the biggest days to be truely great. He kills NY racing because the fields are weak and he gets a ton a good mounts, kind of like Russell Baze on the west coast. I just think he needs to win a Derby or on Breeder's Cup days more often to be one of the greats

I actually think Dominguez is underrated. He schools a pretty good colony in NY on a daily basis.

Borel is the most overrated jockey I have seen in a while.

What about Belmont and Saratoga?

I just think it's silly to say that a guy who has won numerous and consecutive riding titles on arguably the most competitve circuit in the country needs to win a Derby (or another big race) to justify him being a great rider. So all the other races he's won during the year mean nothing because he didn't win one of approximately fifteen other races that he was entered in? Seems a bit ridiculous.

You mean the Russell Baze comparison wasn't a good example?

He's obviously done much more on big stages than Baze, but I can see where the comparison comes from with him staying in NY all winter getting just about every live mount rather than going to Gulfstream to ride against real competition.

Yeah, but doesn't he beat the competition he'd see at Gulfstream the rest of the year? When Dominguez was riding at Delaware I could see the comparison, but the guy has owned NY for a couple of seasons now.

Exactly. The BC was disappointing for Dominguez this year, but he had as many wins as Julien Leparoux, who had more and much higher quality mounts. The fact that he hasn't been able to get horses like Homeboykris and Desert Party to the winner's circle in the Derby doesn't make me think any less of him. He got two ITM finishes out of First Dude this year and that was a pretty strong feat.

So if Kobe Bryant scores 40 against Memphis he's another Tony Campbell....regardless of what he does the rest of the season or during his career?

It's a horrible analogy for the reasons the last two posters pointed out.

He was just unlucky this year as he ran into both Uncle Mo and Goldikova while running second in both.

What probably goes unnoticed is that he got the connections of Joyful Victory (12-1) and Forest Legend (73-1) checks by running 4th and 5th respectively.

That's a pretty bad analogy as well. One game vs. Memphis = 3+ months of the year? It'd be more like Kobe deciding to play in the D-League for over a quarter of the season.

He's obviously a very good rider who's had tremendous success in NY, but he has a history of taking the relatively easy career path, and it hurts his reputation. And until he rides against top riders all 12 months, that perception will still persist among some.

Actually it's a very good analogy in this instance. Ignoring his success against the best riders the rest of the year, in this case, is fitting the circumstance to suit an agenda.

You act like I suggested Memphis was his only game....I could have listed a quarter of the season against non-competition, but assumed that was implicit. The analogy is exactly right.

In all fairness, and I'm not Dominguez's attorney, he stayed in Delaware as long as he did because of his family. He got to a point where he was ready to move them to NY and that's why he's there year round. He can also make a terrific amount of money riding the inner track in the winter.

Russell Baze riding in NoCal for his entire career and never even really giving SoCal a go is much more egregious than Dominguez riding at Delaware and the winter in NY for a few years before riding in NY full-time. I get as much out of the Dominguez-Baze comparison as most people do out of the Zenyatta-Peppers Pride version.

It is well documented that few people on the planet take analogies as seriously as Andy. Though for the record, I think we need further debate on this Kobe/Memphis issue. Andy could lose this one. COULD!!!

I don't agree. Kobe doesn't make his schedule, Dominguez does. When Kobe plays against crappy teams, it's because the NBA told him to. He wouldn't be actively choosing to play against garbage teams for 3 months. No one's ignoring his success against top riders, the point is that he's not testing himself 12 months of the year like other top riders do and that puts some people off.

As Coach once said, no other jockeys have families. Only Dominguez. While I agree that the Dominguez/Baze analogy is ultimately unfair, it seems inarguable to me that Dominguez is still taking the easy road 3+ months of the year and he has a history of doing that.

I could have used Minnesota....or Sacremento....or the Clippers in the beginning of the season....or the Wizards......or the Nets.....or Cavs....or Detroit.....or the Warriors...or Pistons.....or Bobcats......but I didn't realize someone would embarrass themselves with the kind of response I got.

His wife = NBA front office.

You and Chuck must be having a competition on who is willing to belabor a poor opinion longer. I admire your fortitiude....but not much else ( in this case ).

I still like you.

But you should have. Considering the amount of time you have been here, I expect more, in all honesty.

I've decided that your analogy is valid and relevant, though poorly delivered. And this poor delivery has cost you the win. As much as I hate to say it, Ateam is the victor here.

Thanks.

I laughed.

And Dew is on the board after 44 months.