I need to listen to ATR more often
 

The second-hour segment with Steve Davidowitz on Wednesday was excellent. A lesser host would have lightly scolded Davidowitz for his patently absurd opinion about Zenyatta's place among the distaff elites of the last 30 years, but Byk went for the kill and said exactly what needed to be said. You have to listen to it.

:tro::tro:

"I'm sick of the Rachel...stop bringing Rachel Alexandra into the equation, she's got nothing to do with it, she's got nothing to do with this conversation."

Unreal.

Personal Ensign's name came up in the conversation. Talk about a horse that didn't travel much: Personal Ensign had 13 lifetime races. Of those 13 lifetime races, 11 of them were in New York and 10 of them were at Belmont. Every race of her career was at Belmont except for three races. She ran once at Saratoga, once at Monmouth, and once at Churchill. That was it.

She never came out to the west coast, not even once. At least Zenyatta has gone back east a couple of times and is going to go back there again later this year.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/pdf/Person...ifetime_PP.pdf

You are seriously trying to compare these two situations?

If you notice PE's 2nd season of running after she had a ton of screws placed in her leg, lasted from Sept 6 to Oct 18th in which she managed to squeeze in 4 races.

Her 4 year old season she won 2 grade 1's at Belmont, went to Monmouth then traveled to Saratoga to run in a grade 1 against colts in the slop, knocked out 2 more grade 1's at Belmont in the fall (you might remember when the Belmont fall meeting was important?) and concluded the year and her career in the mud at CD.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate. Out of Personal Ensign's 13 lifetime races, 10 of them were at Belmont and she never travelled out to the west coast.

I didn't hear people complaining that practically all her races were at Belmont.

The truth of the matter is, it is silly to knock either one of them.

In Zenyatta's 5 year old season she won 5 grade 1's including the BC Classic against the boys. This year she went to Oaklawn and won a grade 1 there. She has now won 8 grade 1's in a row.

Davidowitz: "Personal Ensign ran down Winning Colors who was running her eyeballs out, just like Zenyatta ran down St Trinians who was running her eyeballs out."




I obviously respect his opinion, but his lack of perspective in this discussion is incredible.

I don't know if it's relevant to this discussion but here is an article about Zenyatta and Beyer numbers:

http://drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=113943

Also, "I'm not putting a crown on her head." What? Didn't you just say she's better than Personal Ensign and Bayakoa? You also managed to mention her in the same breath as Secretariat, Picasso and Rembrandt before Byk got a word in. If that's not you crowning something, I don't think I want to know your idea of a coronation.

I don't think he's lacking perspective at all. He's not saying that St Trinians is as good as Winning Colors. You obviously can't compare the two fillies. One of them won the Derby. The other is a grass/synthetic specialist.

When a filly wins the Derby, that obviously speaks for itself. Winning Colors was obviously a great filly. St Trinians can't be mentioned in the same breath as Winning Colors. But St Trinians does have a great turn of foot and she is a very tough filly on a synthetic track on her best day. She ran huge on Sunday. She was sprinting home that final 1/8th of a mile. She won't go down as an all-time great, but on her best day St Trininas can probably beat any filly or mare in the country right now (with the exception of Zenyatta) on a synthetic track. On Sunday, St Trinians was very hard to run down.

Now you're just talking about semantics. If a guy says that he thinks a horse is "one of the all-time greats", is that putting a crown on the horse's head? I don't know the answer to that. The guy is just giving his opinion. I don't know if I would define that as "putting a crown on her head".

Did PE ever run in the same race twice? It isnt silly to knock the schedule that Zenyatta's people have taken.

Yes, she did. She ran in the Beldame twice.

The problem in a nutshell is that after 17 races we are still dealing with conjecture. If she were to run against so and so on a dry dirt track....If she were to ship east....if, if, if....

Shug just has no imagination...

By the way, I think the double standard is ridiculous. Zenyatta is going to go back east twice this year and yet people don't think that is enough.

Some of the New York horses never came out west. If one did come out west twice in a year, that would be considered a very ambitious campaign. Yet Zenyatta going back east twice this year is not enough.

I guess Zenyatta needs to fly back east 3 or 4 times this year. That would be a really smart way to get her to peak on BC day, just keep flying her back and forth from California to the east coast.

He has a great imagination. He just kept running her over and over again at Belmont. 10 out of her 13 lifetime races were at Belmont.

I found it to be unfortunate. Can't get all rattled on air.

Sounds like you're the one arguing semantics. The point is, he bestowed extreme praise on her and then backed off by saying he's not crowning her. Both ways it can't be.

And yes, he lacks perspective when he aligns the achievements of Personal Ensign and Zenyatta the way he does. What Zenyatta did against St Trinians, while impressive, is absolutely irrelevant to what PE did against Winning Colors, because their competition were in two completely different classes of animal.

See, this is the problem with Zenyatta freaks. They like comparing her to the great racemares of the past, and their justification for doing so is her record and her running style. But record and running style are next to meaningless if you're beating up on ordinary horses 95% of the time. And yes, ST is an ordinary horse, I don't care what the toteboard in the Big Cap said.

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

The truth of the matter is, there really aren't any great filly or mare dirt horses out there right now aside from Zenyatta or Rachel. So if Zenyatta did go back east again and beat up on some mediocre fillies, that wouldn't prove any more than what she's been proving out here. People knock her for beating up on the same mediocre fillies over and over again out here, but she won even easier when she went to Oaklawn.

Is there any filly (aside from Rachel) back east on the dirt that would give Zenyatta a tougher time than St Trinians? I highly doubt it. I think Zenyatta would win even easier back east on the dirt against fillies and she's already proven it twice.

Some of you will probably argue that she should be running against the boys. Why should she? She did it once and she's going to do it again in the BC Classic later this year. That will be twice in her career. How many times did Azeri run aganist the boys? How many times did Personal Ensign run against the boys. If a great mare runs against the boys a couple of times in their career, that is quite reasonable.

More invocation of ghosts from the past. Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? It's irrelevant to this conversation. What is relevant is that Zenyatta has already proven, ad nauseum, that she's better than the older girls in California and Arkansas. What she's doing right now is accomplishing nothing new for her legacy other than another stupid notch in the winning streak. Don't trot her out to do the same thing against the same lousy horses over and over again and then complain when people bristle at her being called the greatest racemare in 30 years.

since when did arkansas and kentucky move to the east? last i looked, i was still in the central time zone....if i wish to go to louisville, i head north-north-east.
and i personally don't think heading to cali proves nearly as much as heading eastward(kentucky, louisiana, arkansas, illinois, as well as to the east coast, where you have new york, maryland and florida. west, encompasses california, and synthetic tracks only. that's one state versus seven right there.

Davidowitz only backed off when he was getting admonished for "anointing" Zenyatta. He was basically saying, "I'm not "anointing" her. I'm just giving my opinion." What's wrong with a guy giving his opinion, even if he is wrong. I think Davidowitz knows enough about the game to be able to give an opinion. His opinion is certainly an educated opinion whether you agree or disagree with him.

I agree with you that it is tough to compare current stars to past stars in any sport but people still like to try to do it. It makes for interesting conversation. Everyone has a different opinion.

There are people who are "positive" that Tiger Woods is better than Jack Nicklaus and there are others that are "sure" that Jack was better.

Any time someone (a person or a horse) keeps winning, the question will always come up as to how this person (or horse) would comapre to stars of the the past.

Why does it matter what Azeri or Personal Ensign did? Because those are some of the great mares that we are comparing Zenyatta to. Why should there be a double-standard? Why should Zenyatta have to travel all over the country to be considered great when Personal Ensign didn't? Why should Zenyatta have to run 5 times against the boys to be considered great when Azeri was considred great even though she never beat the boys? There is such a double-standard.

Who's we? I'm not comparing Zenyatta to anyone, and I just wrote at length about how doing so is a disservice to the horse. Maybe Personal Ensign and Azeri should've taken on more, maybe they shouldn't have. There are so many different factors that make up each individual horse's career and accomplishments, so I'm simply talking about Zenyatta right now. And what I've said is that she's not doing anything terribly significant for the most part. She's walking in her own footprints rather than making new ones, and that's unfortunate because it does very little to prove this "greatness" of hers that people insist on putting on a scale against the ghosts.

So which circuit over the last 30 years has been the best? Winning on which circuit means the most?

I think over the years that winning in California has usually proven a lot. The California horses have generally faired extremely well when they have gone back east. The New York horses did not fair as well in California even when we had dirt out here.

To this day, the California horses usually get bet heavily when they go back east and they usually fair very well.

Alright, let's forget about horses from the past. Zenyatta is running in grade I after grade I. She has now won 8 grade I's in a row. She is obviously based in California. She already flew back to Oaklawn this year. She's going to fly to Churchill for the BC Classic later this year. How many trips back east should she make this year? How many times should she take on the boys?

I could see why people were skeptical last year before the BC Classic. I personally was not skeptical of her ability but I could see why others were. People said that she hadn't beaten the boys. People said that she never travels. People said that she doesn't run on the dirt. Then she beats the boys in the BC Classic and then she travels to Oaklawn and wins on the dirt. And yet it sill isn't enough. It's never enough. Even after she does what her detractors wanted her to do, the detractors are still knocking her. It's absurd.

Oh stop it. That "Grade I" BS is a misleading argument and you know it. She's running in restricted races in her backyard against the same dreck over and over and people like you cry about us not being satisfied with that. She's so goddamn great, she should be able to ship more than twice a year, she should be able to face boys more than once a year. Hell, make her a quarter horse for a race or two, just do something different for once. She's accomplishing nothing but extending a meaningless winning streak and we'll never know how good she truly was because they refuse to break new ground with her.

Why would a trainer/owner want to run an eastern DIRT(the organic brown stuff) horse on tracks made out of rubber and a$$ lint? Zenyatta is great, in the BC she beat some 2nd string Euro turf horses and 1 or 2 actual DIRT(again, the organic brown stuff)horses. We all know what she has beaten in her other "glorified" allowance races so there is no need to try an argue that point anymore. There is no argument that she is not a very good horse with a decent career...but that is about all that it has been so far.

That's why Byk's show is so good...and I don't kiss ass. He takes people to task when it needs to be done. Bravo.

Let me get this right, Davidowitz compared Zenyatta running down St Trinians to Personal Ensign catching Winning Colors? Wow that's special.
I guess he has a huge opinion of St Trinian because Winning Colors was terriffic and she didnt have to be undefeated for people to understand her place in history.

As for PE's staying in NY most of career, who did she duck out west?

and it's interesting the comparison to personal ensign. she didn't get HOY either....


and i don't recall mr. phipps and shug bitching about it.


you want to be the best? beat the best. run a top campaign. don't stay in your backyard and say you're king of the hill. that's what is required to be an all-timer.

I respect both Steve's, both have earned the right to express their opinions in horseracing, it's easy to call one opinion as absurb from the position we are sitting in. So they disagree, great radio, it doesn't make one opinion lesser than the other.

Its lesser when someone calls St Trinians - Winning Colors

Im surprised that no one has mentioned the horse in which Zenyattas name was to replace in the Stake out west. Zen wouldn't have even been able to sniff Lady's Secrets ass! Let alone Personal Ensign

you are right. what will they say if she(zenyatta) wins the classic again at churchill? not good enough......thats where those idiots ruined rachel they ran her against the boys over and over. zenyatta showed up ready to race in april...the other horse had to lower to garbage just to get a win and could not even think about racing zenyatta when she was supposed to for 5 million. so whose ducking who here? i 90 % think rachel won't be in the classic this year. as it is right now she has not a prayer of placing in it. she most likely would of lost at belmont saturday if she were entered in the ogden phipps. but , as usual, instead of reality you get the bone heads turning it into an argument about one or the other. they are both good horses, one continues to win and impress....the other has questions about soundness and fitness. who cares about horses in the past and comparing....can i bet crap like that in a race???....i doubt it. why even argue with these clowns. if you can't tell which horse was mismanaged for yourself than you are an idiot and probably lose all the time anyway. theres so many moron comments on here that i read them and gain betting confidence by doing so. waste your time and energy arguing about things that don't mean a thing. if people can't see which horse is better by now they are living in delusion land....let them bet and lose their money like they do most of the time. besides you are arguing over horses that go off 2-5 in every race anyway.

If Byk is sitting on the left of you, and Davidowitz on the right, who do you listen to?

If it were me in that situation, I'd tell Byk to stop banning PG1985 and I'd tell Davidowitz that he needs to lay off the Zenyatta Kool Aid.

I'd then stand up and yell out to Rupert that yeah, PE didn't ship, but she was facing much much much much better competition in her career, and there was no reason to ship out of the area.

Back in the day, I used to rip on East coast trainers that would refuse to ship
west, but not with Personal Ensign, as I felt she wasn't beating up on a bunch of cream puffs.

Zenyatta feeds on cream puffs.

Yikes. Just listened.

I loved the back and forth, right up until Steve pulled the "talk to you next week" and went to the break.

It's his show. I guess he can treat guests the way he wants to.

And I could not disagree more with Davidowitz's take on this. Steve B sums up most of my thoughts on the current place in history of Zenyatta.

But I appreciate Steve D's passion and opinion...much like I appreciate Andy on the radio and on NYRA...and many other radio and TV guys who have an opinion and are not just stat and commercial readers.

I think the next step is for Steve to have Mr. Moss on the phone and say the same things he said with Seth Morrow in the next segment.

Mr. and Mrs. Moss and have SCUDS sit in and handle her.

Personal Ensign wasn't, as far as I know, even considered for the BC Classic. (I certainly don't fault anyone for THAT decision--running against Alysheba would have been daunting, to say the least.) BUT, Zenyatta's camp has set the BC Classic as their year-end goal regardless of who else is heading there. Likewise, they announced the Apple Blossom date well ahead of time REGARDLESS of who else was going to show up there.

Despite that, there is all this relentless whining about the schedule her connections have chosen for her. She's already won Grade I's on both synthetic and dirt, and we somehow just get more whining. What a bunch of cup-half-empty nonsense!

We have a 6-year-old mare that in the hands of 95% of owner/trainer would have been retired (and stayed retired) after being the first mare to win the BC Classic. Instead of retirement, we have the unexpected pleasure of watching this excellent mare run another half dozen times, including two trips east. Despite all of this that we could and should be absolutely savoring, we get a surprising number of otherwise sane people who jump at any opportunity to nitpick Zenyatta's accomplishments.

--Dunbar

its too bad you californians had to go and screw it all up so now you run on tracks made of junk which nobody cares about.

California used to be right at the top of the racing "circuits". Now they are a joke.