need advice re praying in school
 

i live (red) neck deep in the bible belt. my kids went back to school on monday, and the new principal at the high school brought in a gospel group monday morning, the first hour of school was spent in the auditorium while they sang gospel songs...and then had a prayer. tuesday and wednesday, a student led prayer over the intercom after the pledge....

couple questions...one, isn't this unconstitutional???? last i saw it was. now, i don't want to get into a debate of whether prayer should or shouldn't be allowed.
i'm ticked that my kid is going to school at a place where the supreme court ruling is being ignored. or should i be?

am i wrong? i called and left a message about this yesterday am at the school, and today they had another prayer, which means my call was basically ignored.

if i want to pursue this, who do i call? state board of ed? or do i just ignore it, like other things i don't agree with there??

i don't want to get too public about it...i don't want my kids getting grief about it.

just to clarify...

if prayer was ruled constitutional tomorrow, i wouldn't care. it's purely about the legality of the situation. i'm big on following laws....er, except for speed limits.

anyone??

maybe by morning...

they had a big stink here because a Hindu Pakistani person didn't want prayer said at graduation, she was an outcast but she stood for what she believed, just like Norma Rae...I'd be careful though in a small community where people "talk"...I hate to be a to tell you to be a pacifist, because I like stirring the pot, but you gotta pick your battles...I'd let it go, but if you wanted to pursue it I'd definately contact the board of education, good luck!

Two options..

A- ACLU

B- Move

If you go with option A...Prepare yourself and family for a world of grief and ****e!!!

Let it go...JMHO

These are tough situations...you have every right to complain to the Local Board of Education, The State Board of Education or seek help from ACLU or other legal groups that deal in Constitutional issues. Of course if you do, as others have said, be prepared for a lot of grief and, perhaps more importantly, be prepared for your family to be attacked. The question you have to answer is how important is this to you? If you feel strongly...well, how strongly? You also have to discuss it with your family...they need to be prepared and in agreement or you'll have a terrible time internally as well. I had a similar situation recently...do what I thought was right or not...I stood on principle...lost my job, my wife, and losing my farm, denied unemployment and no income coming in, job interviews have been rare and unproductive...every action brings a reaction, be sure you are prepared for what may come!

I would find out where your school board meeting is and go. If you really want it to stop you would make an official appearance in front of the school board and ask what the policy is. Then if the board says something like it is the principals choice or we will look into it just ask what the policy of the school district is. If they say a prayer is allowed you can then go back door and find ask to meet with the Sup. and say you will take it further legally. If the District is trying to make a statement you will find out. If they really dont want to waste money on this type of law suit I bet they tell the principal to stop with the prayer. If the district is trying to make a statement the ACLU is def. your best bet as they would take this on at no cost.

Not to interfere in Mrs. Zeigler's thread, but I'm very sorry to hear about your situation John. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you...and you will be in my thoughts and prayers (no pun intended), best of luck to you sir!

Thanks Coach...I don't talk much about it but I thought it applied here, folks need to know that doing the right thing is no guarantee of good results!

This is important. You need to make sure you know your kids maybe caught in the middle of this if you really have a hateful redneck kind of district. Principals that pray present no guarantee they wont take out God's rath on your kids.

I'd say dont go there, and just let it be.

If you wouldn't have a problem with prayer if it was ruled constitutional tomorrow, then I don't know why you would have a problem with prayer right now. Laws aren't always right. It seems like it would pretty silly to complain about prayer if you don't have a problem with it. If you complain about it, I think you are just being a "trouble-maker".

You even said yourself that you don't always obeys laws that you don't like such as speed-limits.

Sure it is important that we follow laws in general because if nobody followed laws there would be chaos. If people ignored traffic signals, there would be a ton of traffic accidents. But if it's 2:00am and you are the only car on the road and you are stopped at a red-light, and you can see clearly see in every direction that the road is empty, I don't think you need to wait for the light to turn green. Most laws are a mean to an end. They aren't an end in themselves.

A few more options

A- Keep your mouth shut

B- Ruin your children's lives

C- Pull them out of the school

I think the main consideration here has to be how do the kids feel? If it doesn't bother them then it would be an issue purely based on principle and perhaps not worth the problems it would cause. If they appear negatively effected by it...that's a different story! In any event, be sure the entire family is aware of the potential consequences and is in agreement before proceeding! This is indeed a difficult decision!!

LOL, don't get crazy calling in the ACLU...I'd just see if I could arrange a private meeting with the head of the board of education...no need for Mr. Sharpton, actually if Sharpton is a Reverend wouldn't it be a conflict of interest for him? Hmm, that's a quagmire.

as i said, it's not the problem about prayer, it has to do with the fact it was declared unconstitutional--and i don't think my children should be used to defy a supreme court ruling.

i probably will let it go for now. it it bothers me that it's happening, but i do know it would open a tremendously huge can of worms. and of course my kids would be the one to get the grief, not me--so much.

thanks to everyone for their comments, i appreciate you chiming in.

and rupe, most cities don't require you to sit at a red light later at night due to carjacking concerns...most places set them to go to flashing lights at night.

i just happen to get a bit burned when people try to pull a majority rules, so we're right thing..which is what this is, the majority doesn't rule, the constitution is supposed to. it's a pet peeve of mine!

thanks again everyone.

I personally would bring it up in a nonadversarial way. Thats just me though. And if I had any hint it was hurting my daughter in any way, I would move her. And then keep up the battle because the people involved had actually held this against my kid. People like that have no place in education.
As a teacher, I had parent call me stupid 6 times in a row on the phone and then hang up on me because her daughter did not make an A. I never ever took it out on her kid though, its not her fault. She did not choose her mom. And she was a really good kid. But even if she was not, I would feel horrible holding a grudge because of her mom.

A better option ...

... put an end to all government owned and operated schools ... let parents keep their own money ... and use it to send their children to schools of their choice ... religious ... nonreligious ... or otherwise.

Yup ... it's called Freedom.

Since the military has not done a good job lets go further. A military run by private companies. That would be cool too. Local police run by private companies... our foreign affairs have not been going so well, lets privatize our foreign service. And what the heck, the supreme court privatized. Lets go all the way. All branches of government run by private companies.

Libertarians unite. Right.

Those are all good ideas ... but ...

... I don't like the word "libertarian" ... a word concocted to distinguish real freedom lovers from leftists who co-opted the word "liberal" ...

... but since leftists spurned the "liberal" designation ... I've gladly reclaimed it ... please refer to my political beliefs as liberal.

The funny thing is that I'm not sure that's it's necessarily unconstitutional. You know how those things work with the Supreme Court. One court may rule that something is unconstitutional and then another court may disagree. We may even see Roe v Wade overturned. I doubt it will happen but it is possible.

Anyway, depending on who happens to be sitting on the Supreme Court, you may get a totally different interpretation of what is considered Consitutional. There are plenty of judges who would not find it unconstituional if a short period was set aside at public schools for people to pray if they choose to. Whether prayer is allowed in public schools is not a cut and dry thing. If students were being forced to pray and forced to recognize a certain religion, then this would clearly be uncostitutional. But if students are given a choice, then that is very debatable as to whether that would be unconstitutional. In my opinion, that would definitely be permissable under our Constitution and I know that plenty of judges would agree with me.

A supreme court run by private companies...

Brilliant!

HOly mackerel.

There is no prayer in public schools in Texas. Because of a US supreme court ruling.
Your probably sell crack coke to kids also.
Lawbreaker.
Convict.
Outlaw.

Love,

BB

i did some research last night, as i wanted to make sure of what was what before i mentioned anything. the court over the last forty years has consistently ruled against any kind of prayer at school functions with the sole exception of commencement. not at games, not at schools, not even student-led.
there are different groups that meet at school, and of course religious groups are among those..but that's voluntary as to whether you want to participate, so there's no finding of it being unconstitutional solely due to religion being at a public school. but they've ruled over and over that any prayer held school wide is 'coerced' for lack of a better word from me right now...been up since 250 this am, so that's the best i can come up with.

but due to where we live, and the job i've got, then i'd imagine i'll be listening to somer on this....it's a small town, with a small town, very narrow minded bunch of people. it's funny, i like living where i live as far as my job, my husband likes his, we're happy with our lives. we just don't socialize much! we truly don't fit in here.

How many of these types of cases have come before the Supreme Court? Do you know if the decisions were unanimous? I bet there were some dissenters. If I am correct that there were dissenters, that would mean that at least some Justices on the Court have a different interpretation of what is premissable under the Constitution with regard to prayer.

I hope for your kids the science classes are OK. Sometimes in these types of communities they are absolutely horrible. I will never forget when one kid we got that was home schooled from one of these areas came to our school and the parents wanted credit for Biology. We asked to see what text they used and what work she had done. The text was like a Noah's Ark coloring book explaining the Arc ta da ta da. She had of course had colored and filled in the blanks in rote... We were absolutley horrified. NOthing about cells, nothing about basic ideas of what science is and is not, nothing about fossils and life from the past, no basic biochemistry... Good God.

If public schools carry out school prayer you can forget getting public federal funds. No federal lunches for the districts disadvantaged kids, no nothing. Sorry, but this is the truth, like it or not, in Texas. I cant imagine Texas would read things completely differently than other states. Gdub did not try and mess with it. He complained that it was wrong, but his legal staff told him no way.

Couldn't do worse than Ruth Buzzi Ginsburg ... Stephen All-Natural Breyer ... John Paul I'm-Not-Even Stevens ... and David Who-Am-I Souter.

Nope ... couldn't possibly.

What's permissible is quite clear in the Constitution ...

... Congress may not establish a Federally-approved religion.

That's it ... nothing else.

If the voters of a state chose to establish an approved religion ... or non-religion ... for that state ... it would be perfectly Constitutional.

Of course ... that's based on what the Constitution actually says ... not what activist leftist "jurists" wish it said.

Wouldn't it be much better .. simpler ... and fairer ... if government at all levels ... simply disengaged from the education business ... and parents made all the choices of the types of schooling that they desired for their children?

You're tying yourself in knots ... trying to justify the current system ... simply to maintain leftist control over education.

Let loose ... be a real liberal ... let each family decide for itself.

Now you're making sense !!!

MC Hammer aka Hammer was quoted as saying
"we GOT to pray, just to make it today"
prayer never hurt anybody
although I do worry about the Pentecostals
who go into convulsions during prayer

BB, go back and reread your Constitution. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," not "of A religion." The exclusion of that indefinite article is not by accident.

Danzig, I'm sorry you're in this position. I feel school prayer is coercive, regardless of it being "voluntary" or not, because kids who choose not to participate can be ostracized and I think what your kids' principal is doing is unethical, to say the least. But I don't know what I'd do in your case-- in a larger sense, all of us standing by while religious zealots yank religion into the public zone is bad, but on an individual level, it's not good to make one's kids pariahs, either. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

But look, if you do decide to do something, find out if the ACLU can take the case without you having to be publicly dragged into it. That's their job-- they pursue every civil liberties issue they can, winning some and losing others, so hopefully we maintain some kind of bearable middle ground. I don't think they're out to make outcasts of the people they represent.

What about the guy with the pubic hairs in the soft drink that cant think for himself. And holy shi tskiiies his idol, Mr. Scalia. The guy has no idea what science is and is not and completely misunderstands the basics of evolution based on his dissents. I mean he does not understand a basic principal of science. Brilliant again! So add these two to the list.

but ever since the first ruling, there has been no 'chipping away' about the matter. not too many rulings are unanimous. it doesn't mean that there is any ambiguity regarding the rule....

after what i've looked up, it seems pretty cut and dried....a student has every right to pray in school, whether aloud or silent, before class, at lunch, etc. a group can get together and pray...the unconstitutionality has to do with what my daughters school is currently doing--the entire student body and staff stand as one while a prayer is said over the intercom. that's over the line according to everything i've seen--due to the fact that it has crossed the line from volunteerism to coercion.

after talking to my daughter, and reading everyones comments here...well, here's what i think i'm going to do...
i'm going to type a letter and send it to all the school board members about what's going on, as well as a printout or two of what i've found regarding supreme court rulings, etc...in the letter i'm going to inform them that a copy is being sent to the aclu here in this state to let them know what's up. but i'm going to remain anonymous. i will do what i can, but i'm not going to push it to the point that my kids have to deal with anything. thankfully i only have four more years to deal with this school system.

Dazig,
Besides the ACLU, send a copy to your State Attorney General, Governor, and senate and house of rep people.
Case law is very clear.
DTS

lol
wonder what the gov down here would say...he's a right wing, baptist minister republican....

That's pretty funny.
Send it certified mail, return receipt requested.

Bold Fraud again displays his overwhelming knowledge of the federal system of government. States can not, repeat NOT!!! establish a state approved religion or non-religion, anymore than some states could perpetuate segregation, voter registration policies or "selective employment" policies.
Bold Fraud, if you keep this up, just climb on to the manure spreader so at least what you say can have the benefit of becoming feritilzer.
It would be a better use for your b u l l s h i t than stinking up this board with it!