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-   -   Injury Ends career of Pioneerof the Nile (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30651)

smuthg 07-09-2009 12:20 PM

Injury Ends career of Pioneerof the Nile
 
Per Bloodhorse.com "soft tissue injury" has ended his career...

randallscott35 07-09-2009 12:21 PM

Uggh. Should've kept him on the Poly.

hockey2315 07-09-2009 12:24 PM

Oh what could've been. :rolleyes:

joeydb 07-09-2009 12:35 PM

Somebody put John White on suicide watch...

Just kidding...I like John, just have to give him a little ribbing.:D

slotdirt 07-09-2009 12:45 PM

And here I was thinking Pioneerof the Nile's career ended because he stunk. Learn a new thing every day.

asudevil 07-09-2009 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeydb
Somebody put John White on suicide watch...

Just kidding...I like John, just have to give him a little ribbing.:D

You beat me to it....all in good fun as I like Jon as well.

Cannon Shell 07-09-2009 02:27 PM

Zayat firing Romans all makes sense now. Zayat was on the phone with Romans and he mentioned that POTN was retired because of an injury. Romans must have said "who cares, he sucks". Zayat channelled his inner Jon White and sacked him.

lemoncrush 07-09-2009 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeydb
Somebody put John White on suicide watch...

Just kidding...I like John, just have to give him a little ribbing.:D

I laughed.

And I was looking forward to starting up the Jon White drinking game again later next year when the Strub series starts at Santa Anita!

freddymo 07-09-2009 02:42 PM

This is a crushing blow for racing. When a superstar poly allowance plodder goes down the whole sport suffers. "Tito, pass me a tissue"

alysheba4 07-09-2009 02:57 PM

yeah, a horse who earned about 1.7 mil in 8 starts is so worthless:rolleyes:

Slewbopper 07-09-2009 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba4
yeah, a horse who earned about 1.7 mil in 8 starts is so worthless:rolleyes:

Yeah...30,000+ foals in 2006 and he sucks earning 200K per start. Now it is off to the breeding shed to pass on his frailty

Hickory Hill Hoff 07-09-2009 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Zayat firing Romans all makes sense now. Zayat was on the phone with Romans and he mentioned that POTN was retired because of an injury. Romans must have said "who cares, he sucks". Zayat channelled his inner Jon White and sacked him.

:tro:

pgardn 07-09-2009 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alysheba4
yeah, a horse who earned about 1.7 mil in 8 starts is so worthless:rolleyes:

I want to go in with Freddymo on a horse that worthless.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 04:08 PM

I was never a big fan of the horse but I don't see how anyone can knock him. He won 4 graded stakes races in a row and then ran 2nd in the Ky Derby. Like everyone else, I thought that he was beating suspect competition on the West coast, but then the horses he beat out here like I Want Revenge and Papa Clem wen back East and kicked butt. And then POTN goes back and runs 2nd in the Ky Derby. He basically validated that his form on the West coast was legit.

I wouldn't call POTN a great horse but he was certainly one of the top 3 year olds in the country this year. If any of you guys buy horses and even if you have several million dollars to spend over the next 20 years, you could only dream of owning a horse like POTN. He's obviously a very good horse. He's a once in a lifetime horse for most owners.

Gander 07-09-2009 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
I was never a big fan of the horse but I don't see how anyone can knock him. He won 4 graded stakes races in a row and then ran 2nd in the Ky Derby. Like everyone else, I thought that he was beating suspect competition on the West coast, but then the horses he beat out here like I Want Revenge and Papa Clem wen back East and kicked butt. And then POTN goes back and runs 2nd in the Ky Derby. He basically validated that his form on the West coast was legit.

I wouldn't call POTN a great horse but he was certainly one of the top 3 year olds in the country this year. If any of you guys buy horses and even if you have several million dollars to spend over the next 20 years, you could only dream of owning a horse like POTN. He's obviously a very good horse. He's a once in a lifetime horse for most owners.

But not good enough for most people on this board to want to own!

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt
And here I was thinking Pioneerof the Nile's career ended because he stunk. Learn a new thing every day.

I was actually thinking that winning 4 graded stakes races in a row, running 2nd in the Ky Derby, and making $1.7 million makes him a pretty good horse. But now that you have informed me that he stunk, I guess I learned something new today.

The Indomitable DrugS 07-09-2009 05:13 PM

He sure showed Chocolate Candy who was boss.

hockey2315 07-09-2009 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gander
But not good enough for most people on this board to want to own!

I loooooove comments like this.

hockey2315 07-09-2009 05:32 PM

In related news, Monba was retired today.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
He sure showed Chocolate Candy who was boss.

Barbaro sure showed Sharp Humor who was boss in the Florida Derby, beating him by a neck.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not comparing POTN to Barbaro. Barbaro would have crushed POTN. But my point is that good horses don't win every race really impressively and by big margins.

Zenyatta has even thrown in some relative clunkers. Her race in the Vanity last year, where she was all out to beat Tough Tiz's Sis, wasn't exactly an impressive performance.

I was pretty much with you guys early on when it came to POTN. I thought the Hollywood Futurity was one of the weakest Hollywood Futurities that we've ever had. I certainly wasn't a believer in POTN after that race. But after he won his next three races and then ran 2nd in the KY Derby, I finally had to say, "Hey, this horse is alright." He may not be a star, but he's a solid horse that fires practically every time. Not only that, he's run well on every surface.

I think POTN turned out to be a much better horse than any of us on here thought he was after the Hollywood Futurity. I'm not ashamed to admit that the horse turned out to be better than I thought he was.

The Indomitable DrugS 07-09-2009 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
I'm not ashamed to admit that the horse turned out to be better than I thought he was.

Yeah, but POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
You'd be surprised at some of the horses that sell really well who don't look like they can run a lick. There was a Speighstown colt at Fasig Tipton Calder that sold for around $1.7 million. I didn't like the horse at all. I wouldn't have paid $100,000 for that horse.

Barbaro, while sharply improving, was vastly overrated as a dirt horse anyway. He had narrow wins over Great Point and Sharp Humor .. and he hammered Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer with a sweet stalking trip. I was more impressed with Barbaro the turf horse.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Yeah, but POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings.



Barbaro was vastly overrated as a dirt horse anyway. He had narrow wins over Great Point and Sharp Humor .. and he hammered Bluegrass Cat and Steppenwolfer with a sweet stalking trip. I was more impressed with Barbaro the turf horse.

I admit I was totally wrong about Munnings. But I wouldn't say that POTN is small potatos compared to Munnings. I think POTN has accomplished much more than Munnings at this point.

There was another Speighstown at Ft Calder that I liked much better than Munnings. His name was Reynaldothewizard. I would have bet you anything that Reynaldo would make more money than Munnings. Reynaldo won first time out but hasn't done much since. He ran 3rd in a Grade II at Saratoga but that was about it. I was totally wrong.

With regards to Barbaro, I would agree with you that most of his dirt races were not overly impressive up until the Derby. But in the Derby, he ran huge.

Bobby Fischer 07-09-2009 06:21 PM

speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer
speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

You are right. Speighstown was a sprinter. I agree with you that most of his offspring will be sprinters. You might get a few that can stretch out to a mile but I don't think you will see too many that can go further than a mile. I think his offspring look alright in terms of ability. But most of our trainers that looked at them close up didn't think they looked like they would stay very sound.

freddymo 07-09-2009 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer
speightstown is the biggest fabricated overpriced stallion out there. Unless he really changes his tune, hes good for nothing but the occasional precocious speed, and will rarely produce classic distance runners.

Munnings does look good at the moment. He's on my vulcher list but he looks good right now.

I really don't no what to say here. If Speightstown was half the horse that he has emerged as a sire then we would have been blessed to see him race. Speightstown was a nice G1 colt.. Speightstown first crop have been amazing , I wish I had one, everybody wants one.. You guys are clueless if you dont realize that Speightstown is here to stay in a VERY BIG WAY

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
I really don't no what to say here. If Speightstown was half the horse that he has emerged as a sire then we would have been blessed to see him race. Speightstown was a nice G1 colt.. Speightstown first crop have been amazing , I wish I had one, everybody wants one.. You guys are clueless if you dont realize that Speightstown is here to stay in a VERY BIG WAY

They are definitely runners and they are certainly precocious.

I guess it just depends what you are looking for. I think Forestry is a pretty good sire but he is expensive and it is unlikely that he is going to produce a Derby winner. If a person is looking for a good miler, Forestry is a good choice. But if you're looking to win the Derby, I would look elsewhere. I think that may have been Bobby's point with Speighstown. I think he was saying that if he was going to spend big money, he would at least want a horse that might be able to win the Derby.

I personally liked the way the Speighstowns worked at the sales last year. After FT Calder last year, I posted here that the two freshman sires I was most impressed with were Lion Heart and Speighstown. Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

From the 2 year old sales this year my favorite freshman sire was Rock Hard Ten. I thought most of them had a really nice way of going. There are some other freshman sires that look a little more precocious but overall I liked RHT the best.

Merlinsky 07-09-2009 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky
Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

I'm not a conformation expert. I just strictly rely on the videos. It was a couple of our trainers that thought they didn't look very sound. I don't remember if there was a specific issue that they all seemed to have or if they just didn't look very sturdy. When I get a chance, I'll ask them what they didn't like about them.

freddymo 07-09-2009 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
They are definitely runners and they are certainly precocious.

I guess it just depends what you are looking for. I think Forestry is a pretty good sire but he is expensive and it is unlikely that he is going to produce a Derby winner. If a person is looking for a good miler, Forestry is a good choice. But if you're looking to win the Derby, I would look elsewhere. I think that may have been Bobby's point with Speighstown. I think he was saying that if he was going to spend big money, he would at least want a horse that might be able to win the Derby.

I personally liked the way the Speighstowns worked at the sales last year. After FT Calder last year, I posted here that the two freshman sires I was most impressed with were Lion Heart and Speighstown. Even though The Speighstowns were very fast and were very nice movers, some of the conformation experts thought they could have soundness issues.

From the 2 year old sales this year my favorite freshman sire was Rock Hard Ten. I thought most of them had a really nice way of going. There are some other freshman sires that look a little more precocious but overall I liked RHT the best.


I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

Bobby Fischer 07-09-2009 09:28 PM

well i looked up Speightstown, and Lord Shanakill looks like he is fairly classy and can run in G2 over in England. He's a horse that I've never heard of. I am in no way a pedigree expert, and I usually form generalizations based on when I see the pedigree in the races I happen to handicap. For all I know he could be a great sire...

Sightseek 07-09-2009 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.

Rupert Pupkin 07-09-2009 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
I tell you what...In the last 5 years there hasn't been a sire as hot as Speightstown.. I remember a race on Oaks day it was a NW1x and it featured 5 Speightstoen all of which looked like likely Graded winners in the futurs all of which had 80 plus BSF in there brief career.. this stallion book was ok nothing super special, which his current success he will attract a better book and likely more router types.. I hated him as a horse but only a fool would ignore his current success

I can't knock him. As I said, he produces runners. I think he was in the top 3 freshman sires last year along with Tapit and Lion Heart. I do think his offspring will have distance limitations but if he keeps producing horses like Munnings, I don't think anyone is going to complain.

What was your knock on him as a racehorse? I know he wasn't very sound but he had a lot of talent. When he was on he could sprint with anyone. I think he is one of the best sprinters we have had in the last 5 years.

freddymo 07-09-2009 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.


I challenge...Sure Street Sense was Ok but Speightstown moved up a ton of mares ...Street Cry had a MUCH better first book then Speightstown.. Plus there a ton of Speightstowns on the track doing well and earning.. There are plenty of Street Talk's that can't run a 65 BSF.

freddymo 07-09-2009 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
I can't knock him. As I said, he produces runners. I think he was in top 3 freshman sires last year along with Tapit and Lion Heart.

What was your knock on him as a racehorse? I know he wasn't very sound but he had a lot of talent. When he was on he could sprint with anyone. I think he is one of the best sprinters we have had in the last 5 years.

He just wasn't a very fast horse.. He was legit but hardily special

Honu 07-09-2009 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer
well i looked up Speightstown, and Lord Shanakill looks like he is fairly classy and can run in G2 over in England. He's a horse that I've never heard of. I am in no way a pedigree expert, and I usually form generalizations based on when I see the pedigree in the races I happen to handicap. For all I know he could be a great sire...


Lord Shanakill will be coming to the BC if everything stays ok with him.

Indian Charlie 07-10-2009 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
I'd say Street Cry has him beaten in the "hot" department.


Smart Strike.

freddymo 07-10-2009 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
Smart Strike.


Smart Strike has been around awhile and wasn't the insta sucess Speightstown and Street Cry were..That doesn't mitigate the Smart Strike is a terrific stallion and smoking hot

Rupert Pupkin 07-10-2009 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
Smart Strike has been around awhile and wasn't the insta sucess Speightstown and Street Cry were..That doesn't mitigate the Smart Strike is a terrific stallion and smoking hot

Of the Freshman sires from last year, I would take Tapit in a second over Speighstown. I don't think it is any contest. I don't think Tapit's success last year was a fluke at all. I thought his 2 year olds looked great again this year at the sales.

I haven't looked at the numbers but I thought Lion Heart did better last year than Speighstown. However that could be misleading because I think Lion Heart had about 200 babies in his first year.

Rupert Pupkin 07-10-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlinsky
Can you refresh my memory what was wrong with them to suggest soundness issues? I know I've heard, but I'm drawing a blank.

I asked a friend of mine what the issue was with the Speighstowns. He said there wasn't necessarily one specific thing but he said they tend to have offset knees and they also tend to tow out a little bit. In addition, he said they tend to have these big, heavy bodies. It can be tough for a horse with a big, heavy body to stay sound if he's got crooked legs.

freddymo 07-10-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
I asked a friend of mine what the issue was with the Speighstowns. He said there wasn't necessarily one specific thing but he said they tend to have offset knees and they also tend to tow out a little bit. In addition, he said they tend to have these big, heavy bodies. It can be tough for a horse with a big, heavy body to stay sound if he's got crooked legs.

Seems to me they are pretty fn fast


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