Best broodmare (revisited)
 

My pick for the Arlington Million on Saturday is Cacique. If I am right and he wins it, it will certainly add yet another reason to include the mare Hasili to the list of best broodmares. I don't recall seeing her mentioned on the previous thread about this subject, but her record as a mommy is quite remarkable.
Along with her two BC winners, Intercontinental and Banks Hill, she has produced Matriarch and Beverly D winner Heat Haze, and now Cacique!!

Of her six foals, Dansili is FIFTH in earnings, and he earned over $500,000!!! Incredible. After Cacique's win on Saturday her legacy will continue to grow.

I wish him the best of luck and if he had came along at another time, he would be near the top of my list, as I loved Intercontinental. I miss seeing that gal run. But, he has been a great opponent for English Channel and I look forward to another running of their fast developing rivalry this weekend.

Yeah it should be a great race to watch, and a great one to bet. I like English Channel too, but I feel he will probably be overbet in a race with such a great field & I think I will probably get a good price on a horse like Cacique. Hard to know for sure, but I think the tote board will determine the way I play this race more than it does in most races.
If Cacique does win, I really think Hasili will start to get more credit. Intercontinental, Heat Haze, Bank's Hill, and Cacique. Amazing!! I'll take those 4 over the top 4 runners from any other broodmare I can think of in the last 30 years!!

Im gonna bet EC no matter what. Only the odds are gonna dictate how much. Low odds, not alot of money, higher odds, more money. Just wish I knew more about the Euro invadors.

Are we talking best mares currently producing or best broodmares of all time?

For me, almost even more important than being a producer of 5 G1 winners, is being able to produce stakes winners who inturn produce stakes winners. You can be a broodmare of the year but not necessarily be a "bluehen" in my book. Its all about creating a fountain-head of stakes winners that carries over generations.

I look at such notable and fantastic producers such as Dahlia, and although she accomplished so much on the track and in the shed, her daughters werent able to pass on the goods, which is going to prevent her from being a true bluehen.

Hasili's daughters are still young and fully expect them to be top broodmares, so I wont conceed the name "bluehen" onto her yet, but I expect to within 10 years. :D

What about Dear Birdie?

Seriously, Balletto, interested in your opinion on this particular topic. You're as well versed in pedigree as just about anybody.

Well, Ellen Parker, who I respect immensely, has designated her as a "reines-de-course", which is the phrase she coined for the female counterparts of chef-de-races. But, in my opinion, I think its too soon to designate her as one.

She's obviously a top producer, but her daughters are going to have to step it up and produce well for me to consider her a bluehen. She's another example of a Broodmare of the Year type (and deservingly so), but I think for her to earn the reines title she was given, her daughters need to carry her legacy in a big way.

I usually agree with almost every aspect of Ellen Parker's idealogy, but this one time it left a little surprised. But then again, she knows a lot more than me, so maybe she sees something I dont.

What has become of Bird Town? That should be a good barometer of Dear Birdie, no?

How about Personal Ensign? SHe has to be up there somewhere.

would love to hear a convo between Balletto and Pedigree Ann.

I was just reading a pretty fascinating article about Secretariat in relation to breeding. Talk about great broodmare sires....

Yes I suppose these are two different discussions. In terms of what her offspring have accomplished on the track (not in the shed) I think she is the best "currently producing" mare and may begining to merit discussion among the best of all time. Producing two different BC winners is amazing enough. Then when you add her other quality offspring she amazes me, and she isn't even done!! Who knows what a great horse like Cacique will accomplish the remainder of the year and what else she will produce.

Personal Ensign has been a monster in the shed and I think its fair to say that her daughters are starting to prove her worth as a bluehen and a Phipps' foundation mare.

And Pedigree Ann def knows her stuff. I've loved her posts. Very informative. Any chance she happens to be Ann Peters? If she is, she has my utmost respect and admiration... big fan. :D

Lol, I wouldnt have a clue. It would be waaaaaaaaay over my head

Throw sumitas in there, and they might as well be speaking Chinese.

No question she's paving her way to be a breed-shaping mare. I would say her successes in the shed over-shadow even Toussaud.

Besides those two, another one to watch is Serena's Song-- 3 Graded winners, 1 stakes winner and one stakes-placed winner from 6 foal to race.

A mare, who in my opinion deserves reines designation especially when compared to Dear Birdie, is La Affirmed. She may be the newest member of the bluehen ranks.

La Affirmed is still in production for Brushwood, I believe. She's an '83 Affirmed mare out of the Round Table mare, La Mesa. She is tail-female to Busanda, the dam of Buckpasser, which is one of the strongest branches of the La Troienne clan.

La Affirmed is the dam of multiple G3 winner Caress (won over males), G3 winner Country Cat, G2 winner Della Francesca, G3 winner Bernstein, and G3 placed Unify.

But more impressively, in my opinion, she's the granddam of G1 winner Sky Mesa, G3 winner Wiseman's Ferry, G2-placed Monthir, stakes-placed Mogador, and stakes-placed Quite Rightly.

Her daughters are producing extremely well and her sons and grandsons are making an impact in the shed. Its still a little early to give her all the glory, but I think she will be one of the new inductees of bluehens.

Here's a link to her page from last year's sept. sale where her daughter sold. http://www.keeneland.com/sales/sep05/pdfs/261.pdf And this page is always growing.

Well of course, La Affirmed is impressive. Affirmed and Secretariat always have bad raps as producers, but if you look at their broodmares, they're dang impressive.

don't know her last name but know she hails from Lexington and has published articles and or books on the subject. Also remember she had something to do with pedigreequery.com.

La Affirmed is one of my faves! She seems to be a very good cross with Storm Cat. My fave son of hers though is none of the above listed... I like Alajwad who was a 5.5 million dollar purchase at the Keeneland September sale. He didn't do very much on the track, but he is quite the looker.

Another mare I like is Willamae, the dam of Will's Way by Easy Goer. She is also the dam of Citidancer by Dixieland Band.

Doesn't Will's Way stand in like West Virginia now?

Pennsylvania, I think.

Yes, he is up here in Pennsylvania.

Yeah don't even get me started on fools who think Big Red was a "disappointment" as a stallion. He is without a doubt one of the top broodmare sires in the history of the sport. No question about that.
However that is not all he did, he also sired some great runners himself. His top two on the track were obviously Risen Star and Lady's Secret, and I think I would put those two up against the top colt and filly performers from almost any sire around.
Even his second-tier runners were multiple grade 1 winners like Tinners Way and General Assembly. You add those kind of on the track performances with his absolutley amazing success as a broodmare sire and Secretariat was without question a breed-changing type stallion.

Tinner's Way was a spectacular racehorse, but he hasn't done much in the shed, unfortunately. By far, my favorite Secretariat son is Innkeeper.

He saw some of the best mares in his day... so yes, a breed changing stallion, but his book afforded him all the success in the world. Its not just him carrying on through his daughters... those families are whats helping him. Either way though, gotta love him and worship him as a broodmare sire of sires.

Stupid question... but if I wanted to go to the OBS on August 21, am I allowed to go? In other words, can the public attend?

Yes its open to the public. All public auctions are.

Sorry... wasn't sure if it was or not. I've never been to one before. If you wanted to bid on something, what do you need to do in order to be a part of that?

True, but there are plenty of stallions who were so impressive on the track (Spectacular Bid etc.) that they were given their shot at the best mares early in their stud careers and yet didn't produce squat.

The Bid was another example of a good broodmare sire.

If you wanted to bid you would have to open up a line of credit with the auction house, etc.

The Bid, in my opinion, is a very underrated broodmare sire. I love to see him in that spot. And trust me, I will never take away from Secretariat's accomplishments with his daughters! Love him...

What were the progeny earnings of Secretariat? Also remember that he didn't get to stand quite as long as a lot of great stallions did (Storm Cat or Cozzene, for example). Secretariat was the same age as Pleasant Tap or Red Ransom or Royal Academy are now when he passed in 1989.

Yes, but my point was simply that he is not in the same league as Sec in terms of being a broodmare sire even though he also saw the top mares. Sec also sired a HOY in Lady's Secret and a multiple classic winner in Risen Star, while The Bid never approached that.
My point wasn't really that the Bid was a complete failure or anything like that, but simply that Secretariat's remarkable success wasn't just due to the quality of the mares he was seeing.

Balletto,

Holy crap! I just clicked on your myspace link. Are you seriously just 18? If so, how the hell do you know so much about racing and pedigree stuff? I'm impressed.

I'm not arguing with that. I agree completely.

I'm impressed too. She knows her stuff and it takes years to get that kind of knowledge. :cool:

haha yeah. I dont know, pedigrees just intrigue me. They're my "thing". Its almost a sick passion.

I think its fair to say that me, you and Cajun are all on the same page with Sec. We're just wording our arguments a lil differently. :D

Yeah I think you are right about that. I am still freaked out by the fact that at 18 years old you know about 1000 times more than I do about this. But hey, that's cool.

God, I just realized I may be socially retarded. :(