Turf Sprint Project -- 'Turnback' debate
 

TFM ("the fat man") brought up a point the other day when I cited BTW's (blackthroatedwind) belief that the long-successful turnback angle is blunted when tried in grass sprints.

As 5f-7f turf sprints have proliferated in NY and Florida, (horseman like them as they seem to take little out of the horses), no one seems to really have a grasp on how to 'handicap' them with any consistent certainty. Joe Orseno, (I think), told me the other day that fast breaking horses drawn inside are the only angle he finds in one turn grass races.

So, as fat man suggested, we need to discuss this more...

I don't think this is indicative of the ability of the handicappers out there. The problem with cutbacks is that most trainers don't know how to properly instruct the jocks to ride these races. A horse cutting back is supposed to put in the best late run, as such, all other things being equal, the only time it's supposed to lose a stretch run is to a loose lead. What happens, more often than not, is that the horse is kept too close to the pace and has its kick nullified.

For a very recent example of this, though not on the turf, check out today's 7th at PHA. The 1 horse is cutting back from 8F to 6.5F. She's a lock if ridden properly; i.e. not used too early. So, Elliott, in a nice stalking position with her early, GUNS her to the lead on the turn, draws off, and gets run down by a horse that has only sprinted, 2 5.5F races, and 1 6.5F race, and got run down in the 6.5F race. This is like a 100 yard dash runner running down a quarter miler in track and field. It's a ****in' joke and only happens in racing with bozo jocks.

If you've ever been 'run off your feet' early, be it running, cycling, blading, or whatever, this is common sense. If you're on a horse, which is essentially doing all the work, you could give a ****.

IMO one thing that makes the turnback from a turf route to sprint difficult to handicap is how the times on the turf are so jacked up at a place like Gulfstream, or at least they have been in the past.

I agree 100%. Too many jocks are unwilling or unable to get horses to settle back and make one big run in these races.

you're covering lots of ground when you talk about 5-7 furlong turf sprints.
i have found ways to play the shorter end of the range (5-5.5F) with very good success, but 6-7F is a different animal and plays a little differently if you ask me.

i could see where a cutback angle would not work so well on the shorter sprints, but might be more relevant on the longer sprints especially the kind in NY.

While agree with your premise, the idea that trainers bear the main responsibility of jockeys poor rides is a stretch.

se habla espanol?

Si habla espagnol, no habla retardo espanol.

That's true. Most trainers stick to the script of "gunna leave that up to him." I guess they are afraid certain jocks won't ride for them (when an owner requests that jock.)

They rarely listen much anyway or you just confuse them

If a jock a) Hasn't worked the horse in the morning, b) ridden the horse before or c) actually looked at the PPs of the races prior, then chances are Plan D...instructions..aren't going to work so well

Maybe it's because they go so slow in some of the turf routes. They only run hard the last part. Seems like in the main track races they are actually working for most of the race. Does the turnback angle work better if they are going from dirt route to turf sprint?

what's the saying

Good jocks don't need instructions and
bad ones can't follow them.

When I see new tactics.. always wonder if it is trainer or jockey.
if there is a switch I wonder who's idea it was and if it is 2nd time up I assume everything is as it should be and will get the ride I am supposed to.

:o

I think Nick Hines was a guy who gave quite detailed instructions, and the jocks had a dartboard in the jock's room with his photo on it.

And has reading skills above a 4th grader

They were afraid he would eat them after the race

Joy Scott

A few things that are important when looking at a horse cutting back from a turf route to sprint are 1) an accurate set of pars, 2) is the horse bred to excell in sprints?, 3) if only 1-3 turf races, is it bred for the grass? 4) Does the horse have thr "right" running style for the track?

I'm sure there are others, but I think these cover the situation pretty well.

I laughed, muy mucho.:D

How about getting Linda Rice on ATR and asking her what makes her so successful in turf sprints? This seems to be as good a place to start with her acumen for winning turf sprints, in particular at the Spa.

I actually like the opposite, going from turf route to dirt sprint.

I think the jockey angle on this issue is a good thing to ask Tony Black about.

Joey.. I'll bring it up with Tony this week. He's certainly ridden in a bunch considering his Mid-Atlantic career base where they've run them as a major portion of their cards for a long time...

Am going to start a Turf Sprint Handicapping thread (or series). Will pick Turf Sprints where PP's are available. Less of a contest and more of an ongoing discussion opportunity.

http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27625

I agree, the cutback angle at Tampa where they run 5.0f turf sprints is a negative angle for me. The cutbacks usually get chewed up in the pace or start making their run after the race is virtually over. You have to have a special horse (or a suspect group of front runners) to close from deep in the field at 5.0f on the grass at Tampa. As Jim said, the "longer" turf sprints are where the cutback angle becomes a positive.

I also think turf sprints factor in the jockey a bit more than your run of the mill 6 or 7f dirt race. Most turf sprints sport a full field and a jock has got to know his horse's running style and put his horse in the proper position to win. Because it is a cavalry charge into the turn, there is all sorts of chaos going on and you have to have a good pilot to get you through it.

Replay watching is a must with turf sprints. There are multiple bad trips in these races. A different post position or a jockey switch may be the key factor to put a horse over the top.

Has Linda Rice been on ATR...?

ATR has dipped in class before but never that low

Don't know, anyone know? I'm sure when the Spa rolls around, it would be a good question to ask her why she wins all those turf sprints.

Not a nice person? Hey if Frankel can sound sociable when he comes on ATR then anyone can.

I'm not sure if there is a stat for turf sprint sire leaders, but it would seem to me that City Zip's hit at a healthy %. There's one entered in the 3rd at GP today.

Recap thoughts from yesterday's first project race?

Turnback angle appears to be alive and well. Lake also brought back horse pretty quickly (13 days and 3rd race in a month). Horse did have his only win in Turf sprint also. Stalk and close angle is pretty solid here.

doctor decter is at Gulfstream today in the 5th.
I don't think he has run a race that would win this race today, but the one at Belmont wasn't bad where they came hom in 12. At least he is 15-1 probably waste some bucks including him

I was just about to post the same thing, I remember betting him in his debut at Belmont and he was probably the best in that race, whether we agreeing or not is a good thing I'm going to bet him if he's 8-1 or better. 15-1ML by the oddsmaker is overly generous if you ask me.

We will have to see if the Rice magic in turf sprints carries to GP, especially when she hooks up with Garcia. This would have been a great race for the sprint project threads.

i need to study more...

yea 4-1 isn't bad on Awakino Cat Rice/garcia either

Maker also has the 4 in a change of hands @ 8-1 ml could be a good betting race
have to see