Imperial Council ?
 

Any info about this horse would be great. It seems like Shug is really taking his time with this one, Does anyone know if there were any setbacks ?
Thanks in advance.

He's been working at Payson for the last month. Should debut soon.

Shug says he "had shins" after his maiden win. They are looking to possible early Feb return. He's been working 4f regularly. Not sure if he'll return short or long but he's bred to go long anyhow.

I'm interested in seeing him run again, too.
With the long layoff, I would guess he'll show up in an allowance race soon, and if all goes well, point to the FOY or Tampa Bay Derby after that.

Why is Shug even training the horse?

How many TB Derby's has Shug started a colt in?

Imperial Council's last work at Payson...1/22 4f in 50.60. I like this horse and am interested in seeing him run again. He has tactical speed unlike Shug's usual suspects that come from behind. He was green in his first race, which he should have won and showed a lot of heart trying to fight Hello Bway to the line. When he broke his maiden he was all business with blinkers added...just sat off the lead and took over when Prado asked him...Looked like a new horse and really professional.

I can't find the chart for his win, who owns Imperial Council? He was listed on Dan Illman's "Spa Babies" has having gone through the sales ring so I'm guessing he's not a Phipps horse.

When last I checked Sequoia Racing... I thought McGaughey trained exclusively for Phipps and Janney... There must be a connection somehow.

http://www.sequoiaracing.com/
Thank you. I remember reading about them last fall. I had figured that Sequoia was the racing name of a Phipps family member but it looks like it's not.

I find it hilarious that Dunkirk has gotten absolutely slammed on this board but Imperial Council has been considered a "sleeper" for quite some time both here and with a number of "experts."

If Dunkirk capitalized on a terrific pace setup in his debut then what exactly did Imperial Council do when he broke his maiden in career start #2? They went pitifully slow to the half and considering Professor Z had a disastrous start and then made a woefully premature move, IC had EVERYTHING go his way. American Dance broke his maiden in his next start when he beat the mighty Aswaaq and was then drowned by Old Fashioned. Professor Z beat a horrible field of maidens on 11/1 at the Big A then beat an equally terrible N1X field on the inner. He was exposed at Oaklawn in an ungraded stake.

I am admittedly not a Shug McGaughey fan and that has nothing to do with Shug as a man. His horses garner a ton of hype all the time, are consistently overbet, and almost as consistently underperform. I understand that he has done great things over the years, as Easy Goer and Lure were outstanding animals, but that was then and this is now.

NT

I think most of IC's followers come from his debut 2nd to Hello Broadway. He'll have to show me something in his 3yo debut but right now if was a 2 horse race to the Derby, I'd take him over Dunkirk, who I was not impressed with.

Dunkirk could turn out like Court Vision in a way. He kept winning and running visually impressive but s l o w races. When he was put to it, he came up short. (I refer to his early career on dirt, clearly he's better on grass.)

I have no issue with Shug. As a (primarily) private trainer, he's had minimal input into his stock. He gets what Phipps breeds. The Phipps' have developed many amazing "filly families" but the colts... well. Also, mares like Inside Information and Heavenly Prize who were monstresses on the track and beautifully bred have been less than stellar broodies for them. That's not Shug's fault. If you'd asked most bloodstock experts in 1997 or so what they thought the next decade looked like for Shug the'd have mentioned mares like those and others producing stellar runners. I have no idea why for several generations now those families have produced terrific fillies and dreadful colts.

It's hard to play the game without drugs dont you think.. Shug's barn was very live in 08 and the girls have done qute well over the years..

How dare you call Leading the Parade dreadful..lol

I agree that the Phipps colts have been disappointing. As to Inside Information, she did produce champion 3yr old filly, Smuggler. Does anyone know what happened to Colors Flying (first foal out of Storm Flag Flying by A.P. Indy)? He's working again at Payson. I was just wondering if he was hurt or had a problem after training last summer at Saratoga and never making a start.

His debut was the race that opened my eyes, mostly due to being totally surprised that a Shug horse was so game 1st time out, and that his pedigree suggested he would be far more effective routing than sprinting.

At this point, ihs hype isn't based on credentials, as much as it is potential.

I'm rooting for this horse. I made one of biggest lifetime scores on his dam, Jaramar Rain, when she broke her maiden at Keeneland a few years ago. Plus, a friend of mine is one of his owners.

I agree, however, with Linny. His debut was more exciting than his subsequent win....though he did win fairly easily that day. In retrospect, maybe we overrated that race, but Hello Broadway is still pretty good.

At this point the only colts with credentials are Midshipman, Vineyard Haven and to a lesser extent, Pioneerof the Nile and Old Fashioned. With the top 2 in Dubai, the other two lead the pack, with OF getting the edge because Pioneer has never run on dirt. Square Eddie ranks 3rd. From there on back it's all based on potential. We get a preview on Fri with the Hutcheson (Hello Broadway who beat IC and Break Water Edison return.) but it may be that the best of the classic colts is still working on allowance conditions.
Imperial Council could turn out well. His "shins" have given him time to grow, which should suit a colt of his breeding. Depending on what he faces and how he does it, I'd not knock him, but I don't have him ranked in my Top12 yet either.

I remember that race like it was yesterday. If I remember correctly, it was at Keenland (pre poly) she was the one (and came up the golden rail) and went off at 8-1. It's funny how you remember the good ones. Thanks again for that one. ;)

She was 16:1.

You went on vacation when she won and brought me back a bottle of rum as thanks.

So does that make you a Marty Wolfson fan now?

I'm not sure where I said anything about steroids and/or performance-enhancing drugs. What I am is a fan of horsemen who do what their supposed to do with good horses. Few trainers are given the type of horses Shug gets routinely and he does so little with them. What kind of career do you think Criminologist would have had if she was with someone like Frankel or Barclay Tagg?

NT

Barclay tagg are you serious? He can't use the drugs these guys use period..Criminolgist is just ok and if Frankel would have had her maybe she would have made 5 career starts

I dont see how you can say Tagg is alot better trainer than Shug. Maybe you could say K Mclaughlin or Dutrow, but Tagg??

I'm not going to wage the chemical warfare argument with you, so if that's the path you're choosing then that's fine.

My point is that Criminologist finished 2007 looking like a very serious turf mare for 2008 as she closed the year with four very sharp turf races. What we got from her in 2008 was a narrow win in a horrible version of the Beaugay, a no-show in the Just A Game (which a Frankel trainee who has made 15 starts won), a no-show in the Diana, a narrow win in the Noble Damsel and a loss to an allowance horse in the Athenia.

If your defense of Shug is that he's an old-fashioned horseman who would never use any type of materials that the demons who plague this game have made so infamous, then OK, there are also a lot of guys out there who play the game clean. Quite a few of them would do a lot better with Shug's stock than he does.

NT

I never thought Criminologist was all that much, so I have to disagree that Shug somehow mismanaged her. I do agree, however, that Shug's horses get often get overbet and overvalued.

You never know where the blame lies, but it seems as if the Phipps Stable has "struggled" lately (against expectations). Some may say that it's Shug's fault. I think they have had a hard time finding successful crosses with all those Private Account, Seeking the Gold, Danzig, and Easy Goer mares. Their stable has had the same level of "success" as Claiborne, where they board all their mares, and I don't see Shug training the Claiborne horses any more, so it's hard to state definitively that he's underachieving with the Phipps/Janney stock.

This seems a bizarre comment to me. What do you base this on? What exactly do you think Shug does wrong with his stock?

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the phippses have had tremendous success down over the years. yeah, they miss more than they hit ( don't most?) but they've had some really, really nice horses-pine island alone was better than most see in a lifetime. but keep in mind, they are a very private stable, who breed within-when's the last time you saw them make a big, splashy purchase? or sell for that matter. i think most breeders would sell their soul to get ahold of the phipps' broodmare band.
and didn't shug have one of the top picks in the distaff just a few months back?

They bought Our Country Place and she's been a nice mare for them. Pine Island is a granddaugher I think. Again though most of those families keep generating top fillies, no top colts.

I am no indsider, and I started this thread because I was curious to here any updated news on this horse. I herd months ago that Shug thought this one was a stone cold runner, and the real deal, and Shug felt he had a horse who could win a triple crown race. Shug is not the type to talk, like Dutrow. So take it how you want.

He said the same thing about Sightseeing

Not true, I here that he thought Sightseeing was not much horse, and the only time he was really high on Sightseeing was going into the Wood, when Sightseeing easily ran his career best race.

This thread started with an innocent question about a horse and it went off into weird tangents about shug's ability as a trainer, etc. Just because a horse is well bred, doesn't mean that it will be a champion. We all know it's a crap shoot. McGaughy is a good trainer who takes care of his horses and doesn't push them. If they have ability, they perform. It's futile to speculate whether they would do better with any other trainer because I doubt the Phipps' would ever part with Shug. They breed to race, and they love the horses and the game. They don't do it for the money.

First of all, he's not a Phipps horse.

Secondly, maybe you should at least wait until you have double digit posts before questioning the turn the thread took. People's opinions of Shug are actually very relevent to the topic of the thread.

And, look at it this way, it's about the most popular non-birthday thread this board has seen in months. How can that be a bad thing?

What do you think of Shug and this horse ?

Most threads go on tangents. Focus goes from the horse to the trainer to the figures to the horses the original horse ran against, to their trainers...and so on...

This one has been pretty lively so it's a good thing you started it.

I like Shug. He's always very nice to me.

I have no particular opinion on this horse. He ran OK as a 2YO and hasn't been seen in about four months. He's a total question mark.

Tangents:
Including redboarding and the exchange of spirits?