Swale....Winning Two Legs of The Triple Crown
 

I am intrigued about horses that won two legs of the triple crown. The most popular is of course those who won the first two but then lost the Belmont like Smarty Jones, Big Brown, etc. etc.

Then there is the non winner of the Kentucky Derby that comes back and wins the Preakness and Belmont like Afleet Alex in 2005.

I am kind of inquisitive about the other combination. Winning the Kentucky Derby and then losing the Preakness but winning the Belmont. This happened to Swale in 1983. Can somebody who followed Swale offer some history on his races that year? What happened in the Preakness to him? It seems odd to me he would get beat so badly in the Preakness yet win the longer track Belmont so easily.

Also Swale died of a heart attack eight days after winning the Belmont. Heard he was a hell of a horse. Glad he won the top 3yr old, even though his season was over after the Belmont.

He walked on the lead in the Belmont.

He was a very good horse but was lost in the shadow of his stablemate Devil's Bag. As a 2YO he had a terrific rivalry with a Fred Hooper horse named Shuttle Jet. He won two Grade 1s as a 2YO and the Florida Derby prior to the Triple Crown.

He would have drowned Big Brown.

Also Swale died of a heart attack eight days after winning the Belmont. Heard he was a hell of a horse. Glad he won the top 3yr old, even though his season was over after the Belmont.



And if you really like the history of it, it's very important to note he was the middle of the five in a row wins of The Belmont by trainer Woody Stephens.

Whenever the question comes up, "which sports record will be the toughest to break," I normally note the five consecutive Belmont's won by Woody Stephens.

I also note the number of consecutive MLB no hitters.....two.....held by Johnny Vander Meer.

swale had a really fast workout a few days before the preakness-many think he ran his race that day and had nothing in the tank for the real racing. i think he finished eighth that day.

swale was claibornes first derby winner btw.

Isn't that a very basic mistake by the trainer to workout like that so close to a big race?

Riva Ridge won the Derby and Belmont, but bombed in the Preakness. Mainly because he detested an off track, and Pimlico was sloppy that day.

Thunder Gulch is another. He was 3rd in the Preakness to his own stablemate, but basically had no excuses. His Belmont was a pretty weak affair.

Little Current won both the Preakness and the Belmont by 7 lengths each, coming from way out of it. I'm pretty sure he was in the Derby, too, but obviously his late kick wasn't enough.

Hansel also took the last 2 legs (at generous odds each time, despite being Derby favorite). Not sure what happened in the Derby (he was 10th), although his last two preps (the Jim Beam and Lexington) were monstrous efforts, so perhaps he was over-the-top. That doesn't make much sense though when he comes right back 2 weeks later and beats the same horses by 7 lengths.

Perhaps if Big Brown would have had a horse or stablemate to push him as a two year old and 3 yr. old, then maybe he would be more impressive to his doubters. On paper, in TCs I might give the slight edge to Swale since the Belmont is a more grueling race than the Preakness. Other than that, their accomplishments kind of mirror each other. I don't know how you can accurately say a horse from 25 years ago would have definitely "drowned" Big Brown. Maybe but it cannot be proven.

when a thousand pound horse takes it into his head to run his ass off in a work, there's not much the rider or trainer can do about it. woody stephens was one of the best trainers ever in this sport, i think he knew a bit about what he was doing.

Little Current finished 5th... in a 23 HORSE FIELD!! :eek:

http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2005/de...ears/1974.html

and i was incorrect in memory, swale finished seventh in the preakness. and imo would hold more than a 'slight' edge over big brown.

Wow there was horse in that Derby that finished 17th named Triple Crown. Yikes. I see that was Canonade's Derby. What happened to him the rest of his 3 year old career?

How do you figure more than slight. They both won the FL Derby, they both won two legs of the TC. Swale raced more as a two year old. Swale was not alive to race post post Belmont. Please show me a compelling stat that shows he has more than slight edge.

perhaps you answered your own question-altho to say only that 'swale raced more as a two year old' doesn't really give him much credit. he did far more than just race more at two. swale won in how many stakes at two? how many before the fla derby? btw that was big browns first stakes score. how many did he win pre-kentucky deby?- i believe big brown won one. believe it or not roller, there's far, far more to racing then the kentucky derby. and swale won the belmont, remind me how big brown did in that race again?

swale wasn't a great horse either, his life was cut short so we'll never know, and he could be inconsistent. but i'd give him more than a 'slight' edge over big brown, just as i'd give swales peers more than a slight edge over BBs competition.

To refresh your memory about the Belmont, Big Brown didn't fully race. It was speculated there was a myriad of problems. So I guess we will never know. I do know that he lef Da'Tara two zip codes away in the FL Derby so there is no reason to think in a month and half that Da'Tara completely turned the tables on Big Brown. Of course in the Derby and Preakness Big Brown was very impressive.

You may very well be right about Swale being more than slight. At the same time, I see many arguments on here about comparing horses who have never run against each other, from different eras, and how they compare. So I guess I will continue to question an argument like this when there is a real way to make that comparison seem credible.

But your experience in this field makes me take notice of your posts and I respect what you offer so I can learn from it. I appreciate that you take time to respond to my posts.

i know what happened in the belmont this year. and i've said before that i can't help but wonder what may have happened had kent ridden the horse in new york rather than freak out when the horse didn't take off like he felt was usual. they went over that horse with a fine toothed comb, and found nothing-other than the hoof of course, which everyone knew of beforehand, and that they assured everyone was not a problem. if the horse had any other problems, they'd have found them. his races subsequent to the belmont also showed that he didn't have issues, other than not being head and shoulders the best like some thought he was after fla and ky. maybe just a head better-but still better.

That Derby is the reason there is a 20 horse limit now.

I can say it because I was around for all the good and great horses that have raced in the last 35 years. I spend my life trying to fairly, and accurately, judge racehorses' relative talents. Some are better than me....and many are worse.....but regardless of that I feel I am more than qualified to make these kinds of comparisons.

Take this for what it's worth, but if instead of being so defensive about any comment that doesn't imply that Big Brown is the second coming of Hindoo, you took the time to really research some top horses from the past ( buy the book Champions from DRF ) you might be surprised at what you discover.

Risen Star worked a 33 and change either the Thursday or Friday before the Belmont. People said it was too fast and he'd left his race on the track. He won by 14 in one of the fastest Belmont's ever.

I remember Triple Crown - I think I have a photo of him in the paddock at Santa Anita somewhere in the basement. He was a big golden chestnut by Hawaii who raced in California early on in his classic preparation. Won the San Vicente (G3, 7f) and the San Jacinto (G2, 8f) and was third in the San Felipe H (G2- 8.5f) to Aloha Mood, then went East to finish second a division of in the Wood Memorial (G1-9f) to Flip Sal (who broke down in the Derby). I don't remember seeing him again after the Derby; he went to stud in 1975, according to my Stallion Registers, but had little success.

1974 was a very confused year for 3yos, with lots of different prep winners, and even double classic winner Little Current didn't appear to be anything special. The top 10 3yos in the Blood-Horse Handicap for 3yos were: Little Current, Agitate, Stonewalk, Cannonade, Holding Pattern (the Travers winner; the filly Chris Evert was third), Lightning Mandate, Judger, Within Hail (a turfer), Bushongo, and Stardust Mel. Some good, solid racehorses in there, but no immortals.

Triple Crown was the last foal of a mare called Belle Jeep, a daughter of War Jeep (he by War Admiral). Among her earlier foals were champion 2yo Jewel's Reward, Ky Jockey Club S winner Evasive Action, SW Lord Jeep, and SP Guillemot, who ran third in the Irish Derby (G1).

Thank you! When I read this, I kind of wish I had been around in the 70s. There were three TC winners? A 23 horse field in the Preakness? Just wish I could have seen what it was like back then compared to now.

Just because I am trying to defend Big Brown's record in 2008 and argue against some of the challenges against I feel I don't understand, I in know way think he is the best ever. Until i see him lose a race, I see no reason to not support his accomplishments this year.

I appreciate the book suggestion.

Woody was very high on Swale - if I recall, it really broke him up to lose him. Earlier in his career, he was in the long shadow of Devil's Bag and he never really overcame his inconsistency (from what I can tell - I only remember his death, not his races). Of course, maturity might have taken care of that. It was a devastating blow to Claiborne.

yeah, he was high on him. swale was very inconsistent, seemed every time he ran a good race, he'd follow it with a bit of a clunker. but he actually only finished off the board one time, in the preakness. but when he was on, he was on. and of course claiborne was very upset about losing him, he was the farms first ever derby winner. he's buried there in the same cemetary with secretariat and nasrullah.

I'm confused.....you didn't know there were three TC winners in the 1970s?

I guess you slept through June 7th.

Another Derby-Belmont winner was Chateaugay in '70. Not sure what he did in the Preakness.

Tabasco Cat and Point Given also won the Preakness and Belmont.

i wonder if he knows how many there were in the 60's and 80's?

he was second.

Wasn't certain, but could have looked it up. Off hand I counted Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed.

I was very much awake. He was pulled up, not out ran. He still lost the race but I haven't seen him lose yet where he entered the stretch.

I'm sure you want to slay me for that comment too.

For some reason, I think Tabasco Cat is my all-time favorite horse name.

you sound like les miles when he said the bayou bengals never lost in regulation last year.

Well you even said yourself that you would have liked to see what he could have done if Kent just went through with the race and didn't ease him up.

I don't suggest undefeated, just undefeated in regulation :)

He may have been a real good 7th...

he'd have been lucky to hit the board, but he wouldn't have been a dnf. kents 'ride' that day was chickensh!t. reminded me of mike smith when he said he thought giacomom entrapped, and he did no such thing. there's not always an excuse, sometimes they just aren't where they need to be to win.

Right before the stretch he was right there just like always.

yeah he looked great on the turn...

Maybe Desormeaux had a big bet on Da Tara???

I agree. There have been two times that I've watched a race (during my brief history of following races), where I had a bad feeling about my favorite before the starting gate opened.

1. When Barbaro broke through the gate at the Preakness before the official start. Once that happened, you could just sense it wasn't the same Barbaro from two weeks prior. Not to go off topic but it does prompt another question. Has there been any discussion that Barbaro's false start could have led to breaking down? I'm guessing this is a rare occurance?

2. Obviously less tragic, but when Big Brown was coming out from the stable and through the crowd, both Kent D, and Michelle Nivens were putting their finger up to their mouth in hopes the crowd would not be noisy to further rattle Big Brown. His head was was all over the place.

A trend?

Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking from my post?