Inducement for stamina-building breeding?
 

From Alan Shuback's wrap-up of closing day at Ascot... Note the condition of the race the Queen's colt won...


Queen Elizabeth had something to cheer about as her juvenile colt Free Agent won the listed seven-furlong Chesham Stakes by 2 1/4 lengths as the 7-2 co-favorite with runner-up Seaway. A son of Dr Fong, Free Agent was winning for the second time in two starts in a race restricted to horses whose sires had won going at least 1 1/4 miles.


Isn't this a viable model for the way to build interest in the 'unfashionable' stamina-tinged sires/sire lines? Pleasant Tap, Broad Brush sons, etc? Can be "sires who won going at least 1 1/8 miles", or whatever...

Steve,

I think you're absolutely right, not only to include such conditions but to take it a step further, if there were emphasis on longer races, owners and trainers would bring horses that can run long races.

I know many thought the 1 1/2 mile marathon Breeders Cup race was a joke, but a look at what is done in UK shows these are great races and actually are looked upon as the gold standard. If there was a trend to these type races more emphasis would be put on breeding, training, and running longer races. If speed can take a back seat to stamina it's got to be a good thing.

Spyder

The Marathon is looking like it will be a positive with the movement and stretchout of the historical Brooklyn and re-emergence of several 'old-timey' route stakes.

Plus, there was the news of these three new 12f events just last week:

:tro: Greenwood Cup at Philadelphia Park on July 19;

:tro: Cougar II Handicap at Del Mar on July 30;

:tro: Turfway Fall Championship at Turfway Park on Sept. 6.

I imagine that one key element for the conditional stakes would be to running a number of them for 2 year olds and early in the sophomore season...

i believe the majority of races should be routes then sprints. the routes are my favorite. to place a bet on.

I agree. I'd be thrilled if all these 5f & 6f grass sprints would be replaced with long routes.

Spydee

I know facts sometimes get in the way of good arguments but England runs tons of sprints, every race isnt a mile and a half. Australia runs tons of sprints also. The reasons that shorter races and speed based pedigrees have become more fashionable are mostly economic. Buying horses or breeding horses for stamina is simply more expensive due to the fact that you usually have an extra year before these types of horses are at their best. With training and other expenses rising like everything else, it is just hard to justify economically breeding horses that may not be at their best till they are 4 or 5.

Doesn't the dam have a lot to do with it too, though?

Isn't that being short-sighted Jay? If the idea was too make-over the route-going handicap division, you have to start somewhere. While there may be a dearth of quality competitors in the 12f 'division' this year, this could end up a successful concept long term.

If the purse money is big they will wait and come. You dont even need to worry about the sire thing. Long races for bucks. Do the wagerers want to see these long races and would the tracks put them up.

Big Market for long races?

I would argue more.

Routes are great but there will be a lot more chaulk.

No offense to European racing but if the races end up like that in this country I, and I'm sure many others, will stop supporting this sport.

This is partially why I was so honery about the hearings the other day. The racing secretaries group resolved 2 years ago to card more routes in the attempt to reinforce opportunities for older horses. That has morphed into a cohesive program incorporating 10-12f events leading to the BC Dirt Marathon and I can't see why there would be disdain at its' prospect.

Of course it won't change things overnight, but considering how everyone has been so critical that little gets done in the game, I don't understand the disinterest in supporting a pro-active direction like this no matter how inconsequential its' effect may be in the short term.

Sissy.

Races that are restricted to certain sires are an interesting way to go but since they cant be graded they will never be really important. The best thing that could happen to horse 'racing' at the higher levels is the elimination of the grading system. It is too easy to gain "credentials" with the grading system by winning or placing in one graded race regardless of the strenght or weakness of the race. The way commercial breeders think all grade 3's are pretty much equal because they are the same grade. After a few years everybody forgets the relative strength or weakness of a race and it is remembered as a Grade 3 win period. Graded placings and wins gives far too much value to ordinary horses who happen to luck into a weak division or watered down race. I dont think there is one fan who won't attend the Travers because there is no grade attached to it. I dont think there is one fan who would attend a race because the races grade was added or moved up. I know the breeders will hate this it but it may help.

ornery?

I agree with this and have suggested it elsewhere. Maybe not necessarily across the board, but wouldn't the elimination of graded designations for at least juvenile races preclude certain "stallion producing" stables and farms from securing breeding rights to top 2yos with the intention of early retirement?

I think purse restrictions on the top 2yo races would also discourage those sorts of moves, though it might not be particularly fair in the short term for owners trying to make money by actually racing their horses.

Most likely the latter.

...either that or horny??

He was so mad he may have become aroused?

I just choked on my free-range, grain fed, organic egg salad

I guess I was thinking more of the fillies as most of the stallion making races dont need grades for anyone to know they are important. The grade just overinflates the value of so many fillies that may stick around another year to try to pad the resume if they dont have that grade to fall back on. Who knows how many would thrive with another year of racing? But you do have a point on the premature breeding rights deals.

It should be noted that the first two home in that race were both by Dr. Fong, who, yes, did win at 10f, but who's Group 1 form was displayed at a flat mile.

The third place horse was by FuPeg, who some might say outstayed his pedigree being a son of Mr. Prospector. The 4th place horse I think was by Hawk Wing, again, another horse probably at his best racing a mile. Incidentally, one of the trailers was by Peintre Celebre, the only sire represented in the race that was a true distance horse, having won the French Derby (when it was 12f) and the Arc.

In theory, the idea might work, but at least as far as this race goes, it just seems like easy pickings for the progeny of precocious stallions who happened to get it done once or twice over a distance of ground.

free range eggs??? what, they lay in the sun instead of an incubator?? :D

How do you feed grain to an egg???

that's a damn good question.


do the eggs KNOW they're free range? or do they still just lay there thinking they're trapped??

How about races limited to horses whose parents weren't made of glass.

Are there any left?

with the BC Marathon being on synthetic for 2 straight years, the horses that should be entering are the more competitive also rans from Arlington Million and Sword Dancer days.

11 and 12 furlong turf horses who are almost good enough to try the BC Turf.

it was a reference to a certain someone who finds my eating habits rather unorthodox....free-range as in outdoor chickens (from the Amish farm up the street in this case)....grain fed as in no hormones or other animals.

I won't eat eggs unless I know where they came from as well. I go to the farmers market on Saturday mornings and get them from a local farmer who treats his chickens better than most people treat their children. :cool:

You trust Amish that are roaming about with chickens at night by candle light?

Subject:
Ulitmately the people that watch racing are going to have to want to lay down money on longer races. The longer races would be carded more often, feedback mechanism... ?

Is this not what it would take for longer races to actually find a viable niche? It it pretty obvious quarter horse races are not as popular as T-breds and my guess would be they are to short and subject to a greater degree of randomness.

As far as "inducement" -- OK, here's the deal. First, there is no "just one answer" so to speak. It must be multi-faceted. It must be economic based and/or driven -- breeders and owners. Second, it needs to be long-term. This won't happen in one meet. It won't happen in one year.

You need to start looking at races where horses are eligible -- if their sire won at a certain distance or more, if the horse himself won at a certain distance or more, twice at a distance or more, and so on. Set the limit (1m and 1/16 or 1/8) and then add to it. Get a higher purse attached to it, or make it a series (not very popular in thoroughbred racing) with a stake at the end.

Now, with the breeders -- you have to look at bread and butter breeder. In today's day and age, there is very little you can do to totally overhaul an "industry". Far too many -- almost everyone who plays the young horse game -- they'd rather pay more for a more finished product. Sure, there are exceptions, but the pinhooking game has become a monster industry. Thus, the breeders breed for it, the pinhookers buy for it, and so do the end users. Because the economics are there. Try and get the BC to offer more money for the 3yo's and older horses than they do for the 2yo's -- and the big time breeders will have you thrown out of the industry.

Where do you start? Again, multi-faceted. Revamp various statebred programs -- by collaborative, strategic alliances (yeah, I know, never gonna happen) -- and offer graduated breeders awards (perhaps age, distance, series/stakes). Have sponsors direct money toward older horses and longer distance races. Make it worthwhile. Creative, out of the box thinking -- which this industry has always had trouble with.

I'd love to see it, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Eric

i was just poking fun....but nothing like fresh eggs!

How about when ya crack a fresh egg open and
a little chick embryo is in there.

Thatll spoil the breakfast a bit. All those little blood
vessels.
I miss my Grandmother's house but I dont
miss witnessing the joy of a fertilized chicken egg
being scrambled... uhhh Grandma... there is a little
chicken umongnst the scrambling.

Or watching one sizzle directly on the frying pan.