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-   -   Watchmaker: Big Brown a long way from Big Red (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22944)

ceejay 06-02-2008 08:04 PM

Watchmaker: Big Brown a long way from Big Red
 
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=95125

Quote:

Big Brown has been scrutinized for beating up on fields of dubious quality. Of course, the fact that there hasn't been anyone around to date to really test him is not his fault. That said, it would take a good imagination to picture Big Brown coming remotely close to emulating what Secretariat did in the Marlboro Cup. Secretariat not only won the Marlboro Cup in world-record time, he did so with arrogant ease over a field that included two Hall of Famers, Riva Ridge and Cougar II; Canadian Horse of the Year Kennedy Road; and champion Key to the Mint.

As much of an accomplishment as it would be for Big Brown to win Saturday, he could race 100 more times and never do what Secretariat did in his Belmont: He established the reference point by which all modern racehorses are measured.

So if Big Brown wins Saturday, compare away. I will, too, because the rich history of this sport requires such achievements be placed in historical context. Just when you get to Secretariat, be careful. Be very, very careful.
Time may prove him wrong, but I think Watchmaker nailed it with his current column

Cannon Shell 06-02-2008 08:33 PM

It is like writing that Eli Manning isn't as good as Joe montana....no kidding.

Hickory Hill Hoff 06-02-2008 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceejay
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=95125


Time may prove him wrong, but I think Watchmaker nailed it with his current column

If he wins on Saturday and then never races again, the point is moot. He'll be a Triple Crown winner that never raced vs. older or again....thus, a very, very good horse.....but great???????????

freddymo 06-02-2008 08:42 PM

Take Secretariat's first 6 races and compare them to Big Brown's first six and then do comparsions. I am no lover of Big Brown but the jury is still out. Time will tell if permitted?

Cannon Shell 06-02-2008 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
Take Secretariat's first 6 races and compare them to Big Brown's first six and then do comparsions. I am no lover of Big Brown but the jury is still out. Time will tell if permitted?

I think we are still running against 2 yo's...

RolloTomasi 06-02-2008 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceejay
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=95125


Time may prove him wrong, but I think Watchmaker nailed it with his current column

Just for argument's sake, as far as the field goes at the time of the Marlboro Cup:

Key To The Mint was probably toast well before the race. He hadn't started in a couple of months and failed to establish his customary stalking position winding up last by many. He started 12 days later on turf and got trounced and was never heard from again. To say he was in good form at the time would have been dubious.

Kennedy Road and Riva Ridge dueled through ridiculous fractions and probably burned each other up. Cougar, a 7yo making his 48th career start off a brief layoff, was arguably a better grass horse than he was on the main track.

In addition, flanking this race was Secretariat's two monumental defeats in the Whitney and Woodward. To present it as though his Marlboro Cup was the definitive moment in Secretariat's career that somehow validated his greatness above all other Thoroughbred's is as ridiculous as having After Market at the top of your Turf Division leader board for 2008, even though he was retired in 2007...

freddymo 06-02-2008 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
I think we are still running against 2 yo's...

My point is its unfair to compare the two and only an idiot or Frank Lyons could suggest that Big Brown is better. I do think it's possible Big Brown could be better but it would take a 4 year old campaign not to mention the Travers, JGCC,and Breeders cup to determine. Will never know but the possiblity exists however remote.

hockey2315 06-02-2008 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
My point is its unfair to compare the two and only an idiot or Frank Lyons could suggest that Big Brown is better. I do think it's possible Big Brown could be better but it would take a 4 year old campaign not to mention the Travers, JGCC,and Breeders cup to determine. Will never know but the possiblity exists however remote.

Really?

justindew 06-02-2008 09:24 PM

I'm sick of people comparing every "now horse" to Secretariat.

It's like Liam Gallagher said when asked if Be Here Now was better than Definitely Maybe: "F**k Definitely Maybe. It's over."

Personally, I think Be Here Now is Oasis' best album. And the readers of Rolling Stone named it Album of the Year in 1997. Although Noel Gallagher thinks it's garbage.

geeker2 06-02-2008 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo
My point is its unfair to compare the two and only an idiot or Frank Lyons could suggest that Big Brown is better. I do think it's possible Big Brown could be better but it would take a 4 year old campaign not to mention the Travers, JGCC,and Breeders cup to determine. Will never know but the possiblity exists however remote.


Isn't Frank Lyons employed somehow by IEAH ?

freddymo 06-02-2008 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockey2315
Really?


Possible but completely unlikely.. Seriously the horse has been pretty darn impressive. Granted he has beat swill. It is possible like it or not it's possible. I really hope the horse runs in the Travers Gold Cup and Classic and gets challenged by Curlin. I am know huge Curlin guy but apparently he is the only current threat

freddymo 06-02-2008 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geeker2
Isn't Frank Lyons employed somehow by IEAH ?

Yes imagine that

RolloTomasi 06-02-2008 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
I'm sick of people comparing every "now horse" to Secretariat.

Yes...instead, let's talk about Oasis...

Quote:

It's like Liam Gallagher said when asked if Be Here Now was better than Definitely Maybe: "F**k Definitely Maybe. It's over."
Actually, isn't that more like comparing Big Brown's Derby to Big Brown's Preakness? Or Secretariat's Belmont to his Canadian International?

Wouldn't it be more like comparing Oasis's "Definitely Maybe" to the Beatles's "White Album"?

Quote:

Personally, I think Be Here Now is Oasis' best album. And the readers of Rolling Stone named it Album of the Year in 1997. Although Noel Gallagher thinks it's garbage.
On a more relevant note, who would survive being double-barreled by either Big Brown or Secretariat, Noel Gallagher or Ian Brown?

I say Ian Brown. He knows karate and can speak Spanish (which given the nationality of most backstretch grooms, might be soothing to an angry horse)...

Coach Pants 06-02-2008 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceejay
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=95125


Time may prove him wrong, but I think Watchmaker nailed it with his current column


herkhorse 06-02-2008 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
I'm sick of people comparing every "now horse" to Secretariat.

It's like Liam Gallagher said when asked if Be Here Now was better than Definitely Maybe: "F**k Definitely Maybe. It's over."

Personally, I think Be Here Now is Oasis' best album. And the readers of Rolling Stone named it Album of the Year in 1997. Although Noel Gallagher thinks it's garbage.

Wow, Oasis. We need a throw-up smilie.

VOL JACK 06-02-2008 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
I'm sick of people comparing every "now horse" to Secretariat.

It's like Liam Gallagher said when asked if Be Here Now was better than Definitely Maybe: "F**k Definitely Maybe. It's over."

Personally, I think Be Here Now is Oasis' best album. And the readers of Rolling Stone named it Album of the Year in 1997. Although Noel Gallagher thinks it's garbage.

You really shouldve brainstormed just a little longer for a comparision.:confused:

justindew 06-02-2008 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VOL JACK
You really shouldve brainstormed just a little longer for a comparision.:confused:

Or, maybe the nature of my comparison is perfect considering the ridiculousness of this entire discussion.

Bobby Fischer 06-02-2008 11:10 PM

if Secretariat ran his belmont in today's game he wouldn't have set the record. He would be well held until the turn and win by 10 or 15.

justindew 06-02-2008 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Wouldn't it be more like comparing Oasis's "Definitely Maybe" to the Beatles's "White Album"?

Hard to do. Music was so different then. But did you know that Definitely Maybe is still the fastest selling debut album in the history of Britain?

RolloTomasi 06-02-2008 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justindew
Hard to do. Music was so different then. But did you know that Definitely Maybe is still the fastest selling debut album in the history of Britain?

I believe it. Not only is the situation figuratively similar to flies on dogsh!t, but there might actually be a literal connection there, too.

Scurlogue Champ 06-03-2008 01:23 AM

It doesn't hold a candle to The Boatmen's Call by Nick Cave...

Sorry Dew

Dunbar 06-03-2008 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Just for argument's sake, as far as the field goes at the time of the Marlboro Cup:

Key To The Mint was probably toast well before the race. He hadn't started in a couple of months and failed to establish his customary stalking position winding up last by many. He started 12 days later on turf and got trounced and was never heard from again. To say he was in good form at the time would have been dubious.

Kennedy Road and Riva Ridge dueled through ridiculous fractions and probably burned each other up. Cougar, a 7yo making his 48th career start off a brief layoff, was arguably a better grass horse than he was on the main track.

In addition, flanking this race was Secretariat's two monumental defeats in the Whitney and Woodward. To present it as though his Marlboro Cup was the definitive moment in Secretariat's career that somehow validated his greatness above all other Thoroughbred's is as ridiculous as having After Market at the top of your Turf Division leader board for 2008, even though he was retired in 2007...

Good stuff.

--Dunbar

Thunder Gulch 06-03-2008 10:08 AM

At this stage of the Triple Crown, Big Brown has won twice in very impressive fashion. At this stage of the Triple Crown in 1973, Secretariat had set two stakes records (Pimlico disputed), and he was about to run the race by which all others are measured.

johnny pinwheel 06-03-2008 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
It is like writing that Eli Manning isn't as good as Joe montana....no kidding.

i know the writer took a real chance with that proclaimation

ateamstupid 06-03-2008 12:35 PM

LOL @ Dew using an Oasis album as a parallel for one of the greatest thoroughbreds who ever lived. Seriously? **** Oasis..

justindew 06-03-2008 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid
LOL @ Dew using an Oasis album as a parallel for one of the greatest thoroughbreds who ever lived. Seriously? **** Oasis..

The list of people on this board who have no concept of irony continues to grow by the hour.

Pedigree Ann 06-03-2008 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Just for argument's sake, as far as the field goes at the time of the Marlboro Cup:

Cougar, a 7yo making his 48th career start off a brief layoff, was arguably a better grass horse than he was on the main track.

...

Actually, he was only 6 - his birthday was October 16, 1966; a just turned 7yo back home in Chile. He had won 3 G1 races earlier in the year and placed in 4 other G1s, a slightly better year than he had at 6 (although he missed the summer due to an infection on a hind leg that year.)

Did the Coug really like turf better? He won the Californian twice, coming close to Swaps' track record one time; had a first and two seconds (one to HotY Ack Ack, the other by a nose, giving weight) in the Santa Anita H; he galloped in the Woodward by 5 lengths over the best the East Coast could gather, but had to give it back for crowding the tiring leader as he swept to the lead. He RAN on turf more often than on dirt, but its not clear he was better on one than on the other. The only things he didn't like were a wet track - dirt or turf - and races under a mile.

In the Marlboro, His Felinity knocked into the gate at the start, did some fancy broken-field running to get through the field, and was rapidly getting to Riva Ridge for second. Considering he was coming off of a layoff against race-fit competitors at a distance less than his best, he ran up to par, IMHO.

blackthroatedwind 06-03-2008 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann
Actually, he was only 6 - his birthday was October 16, 1966; a just turned 7yo back home in Chile. He had won 3 G1 races earlier in the year and placed in 4 other G1s, a slightly better year than he had at 6 (although he missed the summer due to an infection on a hind leg that year.)

No, actually he was 7.

This is lame even for you.

ceejay 06-03-2008 03:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS4f6wiQJh4
Still gives me goosebumps after 35 years........

hoovesupsideyourhead 06-03-2008 03:51 PM

watchmaker gets one call right in 20 years ..=:tro:

King Glorious 06-04-2008 01:02 PM

This is why Watchmaker is the professional writer and insider and the rest of us are mere mortals. I honestly hadn't even considered the fact that Big Brown wasn't better than Secretariat.

CSC 06-04-2008 02:00 PM

OK I give in I have to make a comment...to be fair to Big Brown also. At the same point of Seattle Slew's career couldn't you substitute his name for Big Brown's in the title of his column.

Not many compare to Big Red. Oh well why not report the grass is green and the sky is blue.


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