Bet on Churchill Downs
 

As of now, will we be able to bet on Twin Spires on Churchill this weekend?

Help! Don't want to cap if I can't bet and watch.

Thank you,

Spyder

Almost certainly no. CDI filed suit yesterday against the THG and FHPBA and this scenario will get worse before it gets better.

Listen to Matt Hegarty on ATR (Thurs., 4:15-4:40) and read his coverage in the DRF.

Thanks Steve,

What a mess and what a shame.

Spyder

Well, yes and no.

Appears that the horsemen are prepared to make a stand in this set of negotiations. It may be that this circumstance, (as with several other area of industry action recently like RMTC, etc.), is ripe for meaningful and long-term resolution.

We'll see, but the whole formation of the THG, in response to the formation of TrackNet, was progressive in a way as it brought 5 states' worth (PA, OH, KY, FL, TX) of horsemen together in a single voice. Should provide for more direct communication and clearer answers among all parties involved...

It isn't a shame, it is great. Finally there will be a storm where people are going to get hurt(financially) and maybe they will realize what they are doing to the customer.

I bet thru TwinSpires, but, luckily, have an OTB less than 5 miles away

When they are down 10% on a day that probably gives them 25-30% of their revenue FOR THE YEAR, heads will roll and things will be FORCED to get done.

Just thinking, has Daruty ever had POSITIVE press? I think not...

Quote:

"The filing of the lawsuit opens up the possibility that Churchill will ask the District Court to issue a preliminary injunction that would temporarily block members of the Thoroughbred Horsemen's Group from withholding consent for the export of signals until the case can be heard."

:rolleyes:

They'll get the injunction. Mother****ers.

What's your opinon here Steve? I know the tracks have been pushing that they doubled the royalty to horsemen in the last year, but that stat could be meaningless based on what the numbers really are. From a PR standpoint, it's a brutal stand by the horsemen..Do they have a leg to stand on?

Don't have an opinion honestly as I don't know enough about the specific scenarios vis a vis tracks, platforms and horsemen to know who has the 'right of way'. That's why I yield to guys like Crist, Hegarty, Ted Mudge, Scott Daruty to explain the positions of each party involved. Everyone has responsibility and stakes in the system, and everyone needs to make a fair share. Ostensibly, no one can possibly be 100% right or wrong with their stance in this. Simply and naively, I think everyone needs to respect each other's vital role in the system and equitably divide the revenues.

Except, of course, the party that matters the most.

So Churchill will block the signal to their own outlet? That makes all the sense in the world.:rolleyes:

it is this thinking that has put the industry where it is.

Players are a PART, we don't matter any more then the horseman, track or horses

It is very simple, and I stated this before

Racetrack need horsemen and players to make money
Horseman need racetracks and players to make money
Players need horseman and racetracks to make money
Horses need horseman, racetracks and players to make money

How are we more important then anyone else?

Pretty classic isn't it. It isn't Churchill blocking the signal, the horseman are actually blocking the signal, they have to sign off on all simucast agreements

Because for the vast majority, horse racing is nothing but entertainment. There are other options. Of course the others are important, but not as important. Even if they all are somehow equal, the point is the same as my original post. The customer is always most important, even more so in a business that is slowly dying.

Here is where the issue. you have the industry as a heirarchy where I have it as a circle

Oops my bad. Thanks for the clarification. Doesn't make it any less crazy though.

Assume they are all equal, I have no problem with that. Do you see the bettor being given the slightest trace of respect in this whole ridiculous dispute? Please try to read the actual posts before responding.

I agree with Tom.. Are we missing something here?

I don't get where the players believe they have any say or right to be involved with this particular discussion. What do the players have to do with the internal workings of the providers of the product?

Do food shoppers think they have a 'right' to be involved in the negotiations between manufacturer and provisioner?

What do they have to add to the discussion anyhow?

I've read the post, you are saying that we don't have a say, and we SHOULDN'T. It is their BUSINESS.

And both Churchill and the THG have mentioned the bettor. If it were up to us, it would be easy because it isn't costing us anything to put on the show, or train a horse.

I have absolutely no problem with this stalemate, because indirectly, we actually have the largest voice out of all these people. While we need them as much as they need us, our dollar ultimately pays them.

As I said about 6 months ago, when these companies are down 10% or 15%, heads will roll and things will work out.

Respect? CJ... What exactly do we as players have to add to these negotiations? I don't get it..

Oh, I don't know, maybe I was mistaken in thinking that a few of the bettors might actually like to bet on one of the biggest days of the year.

In a similar event, Major League Baseball has just announced that though games will be played in July, no fans will be allowed in to watch because the teams and players can't figure out a way to split the revenue from hot dog sales.

Right now, they are fighting over how to split up the money they get from BETTORS. If they continue to alienate us, they can split it up any way they like. 1/3 of nothing is the same as 2/3 of nothing.

Would you rather have a strike like MLB has done before. BAD example....

I guess I'm part of the problem because honestly I'm looking at it selfishly. This is such a special time of the year for horse racing and working out of the house I have all day to enjoy these next 10 day but unfortunately will no be able to. This time is second only to Saratoga for me and will miss it greatly.

To me it's a shame although I see every point about helping the sport and the ones that make it go.

Spyder

Exactly, worked out really well for them too.

What they really need to do is arbritate the ordeal and be DONE with it. Pull all these ADW's into a room with Tracknet, educate a judge on the specifics of everything, and let him/her figure out an amicable split.

Obviously.

Exactly what, Horseman hasn't striked, they are trying to work it out, they are no different from baseball players, they are trying to get a fair agreement.

Tracknet/TVG are being bitches trying to get a bigger piece of the pie for their revenues/profits but as you said 1/3 of nothing is nothing, but Tracknet/TVG haven't BEEN HURT yet. wait until they have nothing from nothing, and you will see the attitude change real quick

And, if you haven't noticed, baseball has been setting all sorts of attendence records and is growing again in popularity, especially in the larger markets.

I am certainly not blaming only horsemen. There is no other industry that cares less about the customers than horse racing in the US. If you guys don't get that, I think you are blind. Instead of trying to do things to increase handle, the parties are fighting over the current amount and are going to see it shrink.

I love how Calder just raised takeout again.

Gee, we are losing money on our product. How can we make more? I know, we'll raise the price.

Great strategy. Almost as good as not letting willing customers buy your product.

Why are they in this spot? Their own stupid short-sightedness when simulcasting began. Cry me a river.

I dont get this stuff, but I use 4NJBets to wager will I be able to play Churchill.

The problem that has led to this is the greed of a few tracks, mainly CD. Tracknet came about to try to force other tracks and AWD's to pay more for the CDI signal. THEY are the ones who have led to AWD's not having all the signals. THEY are the ones who have approached Congress about changing the law that gives us veto power over our own product so that they can squeeze us even more leaving us with no leverage. THEY are the ones who use the KY Derby as a hammer, threatening to pull the signal to those outlets that dont conform. THEY are the ones that turned in names to the IRS on the 10 percenters cashing tickets because of the overbearing tax rules on their customers that they have ignored for years. THEY are the ones who refuse to offer the Calder horseman a fair cut of future slot money. THEY are squeezing them BEFORE they have even collected a dime. THEY are the ones that bully individual HBPA's into conforming by use of threats. CD and Magna want everyone to play by their rules even if those rules are severely tilted towards them. We have very little recourse except to strike or withhold the signal. Calder is operating without a contract right now. That is why this has happened now. Should the horseman sign a deal that is harmful for them simply to make sure CD gets maximum exposere for their biggest day? It is bad for us too. If CD makes less money on the 2 days then we make less money too which will in the short term lead to purse cuts. But if we dont force them to come up with an equitable portion of the revenue before they have slots income, we never will. It is an unfortunate situation but the horseman have been knocked unfairly in the press and made the scapegoats far too often simply because we never had a united front. We put on the show. We arent baseball players with million dollar contracts. We just want what is fair. It may suck right now but if we get what we want it will benefit both horseman and players in the end.




BTW- baseball was a bad comparison, they are cleaning up and I would think the cable tv industry and Oil industry would make horseracing customer service look fit for a king.

Where does the revenue that the 'horseman' go into?

Don't get me started! :mad:

I agree with pretty much all you said. Bettors are in the same spot, no united front, and less leverage other than not betting. I hope you are right that it will all even out and benefit us both.

Horsemans groups are generally inept and have made many mistakes in the past. That being said, we are much more interested in seeing the sport flourish than the tracks are, especially the corporate ones who dont care where the revenue comes from. We want horse racing to be healthy as a result of shared interests and fair revenue splits. Tracks want tracks to flourish. I cant say that I dont understand where they are coming from but it is a little scary to see how little regard they have for the rest of the participants. I guess this is just the long way of saying that once they get slots they wont give a damn about horses and if we dont get at the very least an equitable deal at the start, we will never get one.

Confusion and chaos
 

According to Matt Hegarty on DRF.com:

"Although the availability of Churchill's races on account-wagering sites remains in limbo, the track's three biggest races next week - the Kentucky Oaks, Kentucky Derby, and Woodford Reserve Turf Classic - are protected under a separate contract that gives Churchill the exclusive right for export. As a result, the three races are expected to be available on Churchill's Twinspires.com and Magna's XpressBet."

I'm not sure I understand all the ramifications of what's going on. Are Churchill's races only being blacked out on account-wagering sites? Is simulcasting to other tracks also affected? I'm trying to make sense of this, but having a hard time. I understand and agree that horsemen need to make a stand now, or their interests will be sold out when it is convenient for the corporations who own the tracks (such as what is happening at Bay Meadows and may happen to Hollywood Park). But it's still (a lot) confusing.