California Synthetic
 

Now the man who forced installation of synthetics in California wants to keep an open mind towards dirt. What an absolute joke this entire situation is from top to bottom

Shapiro backed away from that mandate in an interview of the weekend, but remained hopeful that Santa Anita would install a different synthetic surface later this year.

“If, at the end of the day, Santa Anita comes forward and said, We’ve looked at the options and we believe for the safety of the horse and rider that we’ve got a plan to put in a dirt track on top of a good solid base, and they would put in a track that was safe, personally, I’m not totally opposed to that,” he said.

“I think we have to have an open mind. I think what you’ve seen, the synthetic tracks are successful but clearly there are bumps in the road. I’m not favoring one or the other. I’m hoping that synthetic tracks are the answers. If there is a better option, I wouldn’t be doing my job if I didn’t listen to everything.”

I can't help but wonder if the BC has something to do with Santa Anita's recent announcement of considering a return to a dirt surface. The prospect of a new surface being tested just weeks before this year's big event has to be very scary to them. I know it's horrifying to a lot of others.

Frankly, the BC should do the right thing and announce they've made a deal to run it this year at Belmont. To risk running on a completely new and unproven surface is a major disservice to horse racing whether you are pro-synthetics or not.

And now they are running over a plowed field. Well actually that's probably good for horses in the long run, just hard on the betters who have no idea how the track is going to play day to day. Ive never trained over the synthetic surfaces so i have no idea what the contant changes do to the horses.
But you're right about Shapiro dancing around the problem that exist out there in Cali. Im sure he is facing scrutiny from all aspects of the industry. Hate to see those comments when indeed he was the force behind the synthetic is the "future".

The sad thing is it should have been scary to them all along. Breeders Cup shouldnt be the only reason these guys are rethinking their poor decisions.

and then there's the five horse field i watched race earlier today. thought all that was a thing of the past in cali?

and the announcement about next year being there as well.

this year on dirt, next year on synthetic?



i have said since word of issues with the track first came out that they should have the bc elsewhere this year. let santa anita do what they have to do..go there next year. hopefully by then all problems will have been solved.

When I read the article I thought the same thing about the B Cup.
First it was an iron-fist ruling of everyone must have Synthetic, now it's everyone should have an "open mind".:confused:

Not recently, the bias is pretty noticeable there right now, the last couple of days if you were within 2 lengths of the lead you were toast down the lane, like they slammed into a wall on the turn. If you were in the back half, you could go 7 wide and win, like the horse did today in the 8th race. Be 7 lengths back and go 5w is the key to victory on that track right now.

I think it was the 6th race today where Bejarano rode a great race, and got to go 25/50 in a 8f race, and STILL couldn't get to the wire in front. Horse came from the clouds to win.....25/50 for a mile race is unheard of almost everywhere on any surface. Look how Rosario rode the 6 in the last race, now that is a horse that is confused now. First race he is taken back and comes running, 2nd race is gunned from the gate and sticks in there, and now today he breaks real clean and get out there, and then Rosario tries to put a hammerlock on him because he knows that he is screwed if he goes to the lead

So in handicapping the SA races now you're kind of taking a Del Mar approach to your race shape analysis? I have not played so cal in awhile so i have not been on top of things, just noticing the slow final times the past few days, and remembering the wicked times of last month or so..

I don't know about an approach, just that any horse that is near the lead just aint finishing. Alot of people talk about 'speed' biases and don't really consider a closer's bias, but there is with 100% certainity a closers bias right now at Santa Anita.

now all that will probably change tomorrow because of the rain, and from what I have noticed, is that once any of these synethics get liquid in them, they speed up and speed holds alot better. Arlington is a good example of this. When it is dry, it is a fair to closers track, but when it rains and the poly gets some moisture, speed does real well.

A properly installed all weather would give SA more dates. How they screwed the current track up is beyond understanding. They can turn back the clock to dirt or correctly install an appropriate all weather surface.

By "they" you mean the Cushion Track Company that screwed up the installation in the first place?

When rain is in the forecast count on the track being slower , it drains great but it will be slower everytime.

Racing 6 days a week and carding 10 races in most days is what has made the races smaller and with the days Santa Anita couldn't race alot of horses have gone to other tracks.

Some things shouldn't be changed in the first place.

Would be wonderful, if this thing can stay that way at least until about 4:30pm PST. Could be some big money with in the 7th Monday if this holds up. All I really took advantage of yesterday was Tiz Elemental in the Honest Lady (3.80 shw), and she would have been an auto-toss the way the track was running early in the meet.

two completely different ideas posted above of what this track does when it rains....gets faster/gets a lot slower. it can't be both.

i figured this was the main reason why fields have gotten smaller.

Well i can only speak about Santa Anita, I worked horses yesterday morning in the rain and the track was about 2 seconds slower than when its not raining , so that is how I have come to the conclusion that rain =slower here.

Honu, I've missed your posts and am gald to hear from you. If the track is draining great now, why will it be replaced ? I do understand that it will not hold up as is. I certainly support another, porperly installed aw surface. As Joe Harper of Del Mar said in bloodhorse, "I'll take a 70% reduction in fatalities."

Well I think they want to replace it so they can get the crap that the Cushion Track people put down out......I wholeheartdly agree that they should give the Aussie man the job of putting in the new surface.
The CHRB webcast of the meeting they had was very informative if you get a chance watch it.

Honu....I have missed your posts too....



































well...not really:p

Sumitas, Im sure California will take your opinion into account when deciding what surface to install. If you are okay with an all weather lets just squash this topic now

Honu, how uneven has the track been. Regards

The track really feels great , has alot of bounce to it , I like it .
The only day it was uneven was that day that they stalled the races to power harrow it and I think that the trackman realized taht he is going to have to harrow more than he thought.

Bid, According to bloodhorse, and I'm sure Honu's link will verify that, the majority of people at the hearing supported all weather. I guess I'm one of the many instead of one of the few obstructionists like yourself. But I admire your courage for standing in the way of an avalanche.

:rolleyes:

Youre just one that doesnt know any better Sumitas, I dont personally hold it against you. You believe what you hear, as opposed to actually having any first hand experience.

I think Shapiro now wanting to "keep an open mind" towards dirt speaks volumes.

In my opinion the surface right now is unplayable as a handicapper. There is nothing consistent on how it plays day to day. I don't know if it is the weather or the maintenance or other but they can't seem to put together a consistent playing surface. Every track has moderate changes in bias but nothing as extreme as SA. Del Mar may not have been a "fair" track but at least it was consistent and betable. I am not anti-synthetic either, I am just anti-whatever crap surface is down right now.

Thank god Shapiro is willing to be open to dirt because there aren't a lot of options out there. Cushion track is obviously out. I would be shocked if they put Polytrack down after what they dealt with at Del Mar. I don't know if you can make an accurate assessment of Pro Ride based on the current surface but the current track is obviously crap if they are going to pull it out. I guess they are left with Tapeta, Pro Ride and dirt.

Im sure Shapiro does , given the fact that Cushion Track screwed up and he is getting so much heat from everywhere.
You cant dispute the experiments that have been conducted with horses concerning how much impact is put on their legs on the 3 diffirent surfaces , Polytrack , Dirt and Turf if you watch the CHRB webcast you can see there is a substantial diffirence between how hard a horse hits the ground on the three. The most suprising to me and I think it will be to alot of folks when they see the video and the charts that Turf is not the kindest surface when gauging impact on a horses leg ,Polytrack is much kinder and Dirt is second.

and yet a study that got all kinds of press a couple years ago found that turf was kinder to horses than dirt. so how can that have changed?

I can only tell you what the data showed in that webcast, they had a aparatus strapped to the horses legs , they galloped it on dirt polly and turf, and then processed the data and put it onto a chart.
You should see the amount of slippage that occures when a horse is running on turf, its hoof actually slips , stops and slips again, its amazing that they dont break all there legs off when they run.

and i also read that the way synthetic reacts to a horses movement is different than dirt, and explains why there are many more hind end injuries than what was seen on dirt, which supposedly caused more front end injuries.

so are there less injuries?


overall, based on percentages, they said that turf showed to be a safer surface than dirt in that study.

Are there more hind end injuries with the synthetic surfaces? That is not what I used to hear, so correct me if I am wrong on this. I don't know about Santa Anita because I know that track is a mess right now, but from what I remember, a lot of the horsemen were very happy with Hollywood Park and Del Mar after the installation of synthetic as far as safety went.

The dirt Cali. tracks were horrible on horses before the installation of the synthetic surfaces. The trainers said they couldn't give the horses a workout without them coming back puffy or sore. If I'm not mistaken, that was the reason that Cali. switched to synthetic in the first place.

You are wrong

Cali switched to sneakers and paper mache because some moron mandated it be done. Now that same moron wants to keep an open mind to putting down a new dirt and a new base.

Well that is general knowledge at this point.

Wasn't the reason that he mandated it in large part due to the numbers of injuries, breakdowns, and trying to get larger fields of horses?

Shirreffs, who stables at Hollywood, said that he sees more hind-end injuries, hoof bruises, and gravels.


Trainer William J. Morey Jr. said his horses have experienced “more hind-end problems” on the new surface (golden gate)


Have you found a reduction in one type of injury but an increase in another type, say, fewer chipped bones but more hind-end problems?

A: We just haven’t had that experience. Perhaps it is because we (in Australia) are turf racing and not dirt racing. There’s an argument over here to say that horses bred for running on dirt are more on the forehand. I think there’s something in putting dirt horses on synthetic tracks. I think it’s going to take a little bit of time because (horsemen may) have to change their training techniques.

When asked about undocumented reports that horses racing on synthetic surfaces are having more hind-end injuries, Dickinson said: “The tensile strength of the fibers used in Tapeta was specifically designed and selected for stability for a horse’s hind end.”


each of those above is from a different article...just a few i found right off. it's something i've seen mentioned more than once in various bloodhorse articles--and it seems it was something that dickinson looked into solving with his tapeta...

Youll have to call that buffoon and ask him why he mandated it. Probably because he doesnt have a clue what hes doing. He should have consulted with Sumitas prior to mandate

i also read tho, that they new they needed resurfacing, and there was a lack of good dirt on the west coast.

The reason that I know that about the horrible dirt surface in Cali before synthetic is because someone I know is closely associated with a lot of the big guys in racing out on the west coast. Wish he would pipe in on this thread because a lot of these questions would get answered.

Shirreffs is one of the good guys in racing, and is a terrific, conservative trainer. If he says that there are more hind-end injuries, then that is more than likely the case. I trust his judgment.

You're so connected. Can I have your autograph?