Kidd to Mavs
 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102

NJ did well in getting a good, 24 year old PG and freeing up a bunch of salary cap space in addition to getting a number #1 and #2. Though Dallas figures to make the playoffs and the picks wont be very high, the fact is that there have been many late draft picks that have made big impacts lately and the salary structure for incoming players is already pretty set. If only they hadnt wasted so much money resigning Carter...

Stephon is on the trading block. :D

I like the trade. I think Dallas had to make the move in order to go after a title now. Kidd will help them more THIS SEASON than Harris will. Tomorrow is never guaranteed. This is the same thing I liked about Phoenix' trade for Shaq. If, as an owner or general manager, you look at your roster and know that you are good but not going to win a title, you make moves that you believe will make you better now. Simple. This is the problem the gm in Chicago didn't understand. They had chances last year and in the off-season to trade for Garnett or Gasol. They didn't make either move because they didn't want to get rid of Deng or Gordon. Those guys are fine players but as constructed, the Bulls were NOT going to win a title. So why hold on to them? Harris is a fine player and will be around for years after Kidd is gone but the chance to win a title is now so I applaud the move. The obvious area that it will hurt Dallas is in losing Diop. As unproductive as he is offensively, when combined with Dampier, they are at least a presence on defense and if nothing else, a big body and six more fouls to use against the dominant inside men of the West (Shaq, Bynum, Stoudamire, Duncan, Ming). It will not surprise me if after the Nets buyout Stackhouse, he resigns with the Mavs. One thing that I think the Mavs blew was the chance to sign Chris Webber. Webber is merely a shadow of his former self but I think he could have fit in well off of the bench for this team. If Dallas had pulled the trigger on this deal earlier, the addition of Kidd might have been enough to make Webber want to go there instead of to Golden State.

The playoffs in the West this year are probably going to be as strong as ever in the history of the game. It's going to be brutal. I think that it's going to be so brutal that it could actually end up helping the team that wins the East to the title. I think back to the first half of the 1980's when the East was so strong with Boston, Philadelphia, and Milwaukee and while they were killing each other, the Lakers were skating through the West.

They're going to miss Stackhouse in the playoffs. Dirk is not exactly Mr. Clutch in crunch time.

Totally agree about Dirk totally crumbling when the Mavs need him most.

[quote=Cannon Shell]http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3244102

NJ did well in getting a good, 24 year old PG and freeing up a bunch of salary cap space in addition to getting a number #1 and #2. Though Dallas figures to make the playoffs and the picks wont be very high, the fact is that there have been many late draft picks that have made big impacts lately and the salary structure for incoming players is already pretty set. If only they hadnt wasted so much money resigning Carter...[/QUOTE]

I agree (I may be the only Nets fan on this board:o ) Re-signing Carter was based on Kidd being around. Unless he steps up his game now that Kidd is gone, the present and near-future aren't that bright. But they may now try to trade Carter.

Dirk has troubles with long, athletic guys bothering him on the perimeter and against Golden State, he certainly had his struggles. But I would like to argue that Dirk doesn't come through in the clutch. Look back to that series in 2006 against the Spurs. Dirk went for 27.1 points and 13.3 boards in that seven game series, including 37 and 15 in the final game, at San Antonio. In the next series, against Phoenix, he went for 28.0 and 13.2 in a six game series, including a 50 point night in game five after the Suns had tied the series. Those numbers went down to 22.8 and 10.8 in the championship series against Miami and he had 29 and 15 in the final game. How much more is one guy supposed to do? It just so happened that his team was beaten by a better player in Wade.

Dirk has career averages of 22.3 points and 8.6 rebounds per game, numbers that go up to 25.2 and 11.1 in the playoffs. That's not what a choker does. How many superstars have led their teams to titles in the last 25 years?

Moses Malone
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Isaiah Thomas
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Dwayne Wade

That means that a whole lot of other superstars have lost in the clutch. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, and Patrick Ewing were all superstars but they lost when they went up against a better player in Jordan. That's not a disgrace. Dirk's struggles last year reminded me of Magic back in 1981 against the Rockets when the 54-win Lakers were upset in the first round by the 40-win Rockets.

Compare Dirk's career playoff numbers to the greats in the history of the game and I think that you would be surprised at how he rates.

Yeah the thing is there's no Jordan now. All three of the guys you mentioned would've had a ring if they played in this era.

The point was that usually, the best will beat the second best. Tim Duncan is arguably the best power forward in the history of the game and will likely be ranked as a top 20 player of all time if not top 10. To come up short against a team led by him is not a disgrace. Dirk's prime years have come during the prime years of Duncan's. LeBron is arguably the best in the game now and he came up short to Duncan's team too. Wade had one of the greatest series' ever in the league. He's a future hall of fame player. To lose to another great player (teamed with a motivated Shaq) doesn't mean he choked.

Barkley and Malone both were playing in the years that Jordan sat out and Ewing got to the finals. They just lost to a better player in Olajuwon. What is interesting is that the Rockets beat Malone's Jazz and Barkley's Suns in BOTH title years.

*sigh*

Do you think Nowitski is better than Ewing, Barkley or Malone?

Ewing, yes. Barkley and Malone, no.

I think that Ewing was a better regular season player. Offensively, they were pretty even. Ewing was a dominant defender though and that's where he gets the edge. But check out the playoff numbers. Ewing's number's don't improve. Dirk's do. I looked at the career numbers of both players. To be fair, I counted Ewing's numbers only up to the age of 34 and I didn't count Dirk's rookie season, when he only played 47 games and 20 minutes per game.

Ewing Regular Season/Playoffs
23.6 points, 10.4 boards, 2.1 assists, 2.76 blocks, 3.3 turnovers
22.5...........10.9............2.4...........2.51. ...........2.8

Nowitzki Regular Season/Playoffs
23.1 points, 8.9 boards, 2.8 assists, 1.08 blocks, 1.9 turnovers
25.2...........11.1..........2.4............1.05.. .........2.2

Ewing was great in college.
I just dont think he was that
great as a pro.

Ewing is nowhere near Malone, Hakeem,
etc... David Robinson was a heck of
a lot better than Ewing but could not win
squat until Duncan came. I dont know how
people can ever forget Moses Malone. He was
a beast. Seems to be left out of a lot of
conversations when discussing top big men.

I think Dirk will be helped out tremendously with
the addition of Kidd. Kidd will help them get past
teams like Phoenix and Golden State. As a Spurs
fan I like the trade because the only guy that
could cover Parker on Dallas might be gone.

I think you might have missed Ewings selection to the 50 greatest players of the NBA. He was nowhere near Malone, Hakeem, Robinson? Are you serious?

Not even close imo.
Baseline jumper.
Tough guy, good player but
way slow. Not even close...
If David Robinson had played in NY
he would have been the 2nd coming.
Duncan would now be the best of all time
if NY had won 4 titles with him.

Of course I was not allowed to vote on the top 50.

Ewing was too slow? Did you ever see him play in the NBA? Ewing was only the best defensive center of the modern era and he happened to show up and play hard every night and put in 25 and grab 12. You may favor others but to say that its not even close shows a complete lack of understanding of the game of basketball.

Not so fast,my friends! Deavon Georges' agent is holding up the deal...to be continued!

Ewing was not even close to Robinson as a defender.
Ewing also got injured fairly early on and it severely limited
his mobility.
Better than Malone and Hakeem as a defender. Not as good as Duncan as
a defender. No San Antonio bias of course.

ANd I really do believe he is a clear cut below
Moses Malone, Hakeem, Robinson and currently Duncan.
And yes I saw them all play multiple times.

Im dead serious. I dont think he was as good.
He goal tended as much as any center I have seen
on some horrible shots. In college and in the pros.

I do agree he was very tough and always gave
full effort. If David Robinson had done the same...
no one would forget him. Just not as talented as the
guys I mention above. Ewing playing on a team in the
midsection of the country would not have made the
top 50 imo. One has to admit that where a player
plays has a big impact on the press a player gets.

Somehow I think Cuban makes this work.

I think you are a little bit off here. When Ewing came into the league, people thought he'd be a defensive star more than offensive. It was his offense that ended up surprising people but his rebounding numbers were often criticized because they weren't where people thought they should be. He also was not even close to being the best defensive center of his era. Better than Olajuwon or Robinson or Mutombo? Seriously?

Times voted as defensive player of the year:
Ewing-0
Robinson-1
Mutombo-4
Olajuwon-2

Times on the NBA all defensive team 1st/2nd:
Ewing-0/3
Robinson 4/4
Mutombo 3/3
Olajuwon-5/4

Times in the top five in blocks per game:
Ewing-5 times (0 times led the league)
Robinson-7 (1)
Mutombo-10 (5)
Olajuwon-12 (3)

Times in the top five in rebounds per game:
Ewing-4 (0 times led the league)
Robinson-5 (1)
Mutombo-9 (2)
Olajuwon-7 (2)

Rebounds are not a defensive stat. Ewing was the best post defender in the NBA during his 1st 7 or 8 years. There has always been a bias against this guy for whatever reason, including the writers who vote on those awards. He was a tremendous player who was easily as good defensively as any of those other guys. Olajuwan was more athletic but took lots of plays off. Mutombo was just long. He could never get further than 8 feet away from the basket without being a liability. Robinson was a great player and a nice guy but if you watched the NBA during the late 80's and early 90's and thought that he was a better all around defender than Ewing, you just didnt watch enough. There is more to defense at the center position than simple shots blocked.

Ewing is one of the best centers of all time. To say he is overrated is laughable.

Look how well the Knicks have done since he retired. That should speak volumes about his contribution to them and the game.

Yep.
People did not watch enough Robinson.
He was not on TV consistently.
Ewing was always on TV in college
and then everyone followed in the pros.
Robinson was unknown in college until his
senior season. Got very little press.

He is remembered mostly for being torched
by Hakeem in the playoffs. Robinson was a good
on the ball and off the ball defender. Tons better
than Ewing.

Ewing played for the Knicks. The Knicks are in NY.
A very good player but overrated.

OMG.
A bit of a time sequence skipped.

So of the guys mentioned:
Robinson
Moses Malone
Hakeem
Duncan

Which of these was Ewing better than?

And then of course we can add other centers
like Jabbar etc... Ewing is down the line.

So that short list doesn't make him one of the greatest of all time?
Duncan is a power forward.

Russell
Chamberlain
Jabbar
Walton
ONeill
Mikan (really too old to do but relative to others)
above in no order. So Ewing might make the top 10.
If Yao holds up, Howard... he moves further down.
I just think Ewing's college career is overlapped
with his pro career. He might be 2nd or third best
college center of all time. Behind Jabbar and possibly
Walton.


The NBA listed him as a Center until
the Spurs protested that Yao would
get all the votes and Duncan would
not get a start.
He is a Center. Oberto is a power forward.
Duncan played Center when Robinson was
really the power forward.

I guess its a matter of how you view the position.
If you mention Barkely, Karl Malone, as some of the
best power forwards, then you have to call Duncan
a Center. Duncan plays closer to the basket and posts
up more than any 7 foot power forward ever. So I call him
a Center.

Twas fun.
I sleep.

Ewing is deserving of his spot in the top 50, IMO. I don't think he was better overall than Olajuwon or Robinson though. I don't think he was better defensively either. I do think it's possible that he was overrated a bit though because he played in NY. That happens with a lot of players. I think that had Robinson or Olajuwon played there, they would have been seen as near Gods. Ewing held his own against those guys and is certainly in the conversation but I put him just a bit short.

I absolutely think that rebounds are a defensive statistic. Any coach would agree. And I understand that the rebound numbers and blocked shots don't define how great a defender is. But you would think that if you are going to declare that a guy was the dominant defensive center of his era, there has to be something to back that up besides your opinion. All factual evidence (blocks, rebounds, times named all-defense, and winning defensive player of the year) put him below those three guys I named. I'd even place two-time defensive player of the year Alonzo Mourning over him.

Laugh away then cause from what I've read in this thread the guy is more overrated than I'd ever imagined. Did you guys just watch Knicks games and never see Olajuwon? In every facet of the game Hakeem was better. Why were the Knicks always better when Ewing was hurt if he was so good?

The Ewing hating is really unfortunate. The guy was great and played his ass off every night. This " the Knicks were better when he was hurt " crap is appalling and farcical. In his prime he was an absolute force and only in NY could anybody criticize him.

For twenty years I almost never missed a Knick game, many of them live at the Garden, and now for the past ten years I almost never watch.....and when I do it is to root for them, and their buffoonish leadership of Isaah Thomas and James Dolan, to lose. I only wish they had a player half as great as Patrick Ewing. At least then I could pity the poor victim of this Titanic.

Well apparently a bunch of people are completely missing the boat on Olajuwon.

PPG - Olajuwon leads 21.8 to 21.0
RPG - Olajuwon leads 11.1 to 9.8
BPG - Olajuwon leads 3.1 to 2.4
SPG - Olajuwon leads 1.7 to 1.0
APG - Olajuwon leads 2.5 to 1.9
FG% - Olajuwon leads .512 to .504
Olajuwon was won the MVP, the best Ewing did is 4th
Olajuwon has twice been defensive player of the year, Ewing never was
Olajuwon won rings, Ewing didn't

In no way, shape, or form was Ewing better than or even as good as Olajuwon.

Ewing was and is actually underrated, not overrated. He could never do enough to satisfy fans and writers as is obvious by your comments. As I said before you may believe that one or two of those other centers are better than him which is very much a possibility. But to say that he is not even in the same class as them is laughable. There were 3 dominant centers during this time frame and Ewing stacks up very nicely against both guys. The expectation level for him was higher than any player during that era. He HAD to be dominant because everybody expected that from him from the time he was a college freshman. Hakeem was considered 2nd fiddle on his own team coming into the NBA and Robinson was kind of a freakshow playing for the Navy. Ewing's teams never won a championship in the NBA but using championships to compare players is folly because of the differences in teammates and coaches. He was not only the offensive cornerstone of the Knicks but was THE key on defense which was the strong suit of the Knicks during that time period. If you watched at all you would know the only reason that they were able to compete at the highest level was because of defense (and thuggery) and Ewing.

Robinson also beat him head to head in every category but rebounds. I don't think anyone here is denying that Ewing belongs in the top 50 NBA players. He was just the 3rd best center of his era so unless people are calling him the 4th best I can't see how he is being underrated.