Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Though trading established stars for future ones is always risky, this deal may backfire for the Tigers. Caberera is a tremendous hitter but is getting fatter and fatter and lacks a position. Fat guys play less than non fat guys. Willis looks burned out. Though the jury is out on the 2 guys the Tigers are giving up, they are both top 15 prospects and are really young. However there are other players heading to Detroit that we dont know yet.

Originally Posted by GPK

Haven't played in a while, huh Chuck?









ok, that was too easy...

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MIGGY and D-TRAIN are TIGERS!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dude the dtrain went off the tracks....

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

He's only 26, he has room for improvement and will very well do so. He has shown what he is capable of doing, and I expect him to have a very good year and to only get better.

Who doesn't go off the track with the Marlins??? They love to try to kill talent.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Though trading established stars for future ones is always risky, this deal may backfire for the Tigers. Caberera is a tremendous hitter but is getting fatter and fatter and lacks a position. Fat guys play less than non fat guys. Willis looks burned out. Though the jury is out on the 2 guys the Tigers are giving up, they are both top 15 prospects and are really young. However there are other players heading to FL that we dont know yet.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Cabrera's down 15 pounds since the end of the season. He'll have a good or very good year next season wherever he plays. He's had next to nothing batting in fron/behind him. I imagine he'd be a tougher out batting between Sheffield and Guillen. He's not great or even good in the field. He'll probably wind up at first base someday.

I think Willis is still very good. In 6 week stretch, he lost games 3-0, 3-2, 3-2, 4-3 and 4-3. He also won his last four starts. Never misses a start.

Originally Posted by whodey17

What a freaking line-up. Granderson, Polaco, Mags, Sheff, Ordonez, Puge, and I am sure I am forgetting a couple of guys. Speed and power and avg: they have it all. I could care less about D-Train. If they get 10 wins out of him then fine. But with this line-up he could have an ERA over 5 and still win 15.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a Yankees type move. Fail to address your real issue (pitching) and give up your whole system (between this trade and the one for Renteria). They have an imposing lineup but have 4 question marks in the rotation besides Verlander. Bonderman was not good, Rogers is a fossil, Robertson is a 5th starter at best and Willis was really bad last year in the NL, this is not going to be easier. They also are depending on guys coming off of career years (Mags, Granderson, Polonco) and old guys (Todd Jones, Sheffield, Mags knees, Pudge, Rogers). The lineup looks imposing on paper but if they dont get more pitching, they will have traded the future for a team that has a 2 year window.

The real issue may be the Marlins may have a payroll of les than 10 million next year. Why wont baseball force them to try to be competitive?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is a Yankees type move. Fail to address your real issue (pitching) and give up your whole system (between this trade and the one for Renteria). They have an imposing lineup but have 4 question marks in the rotation besides Verlander. Bonderman was not good, Rogers is a fossil, Robertson is a 5th starter at best and Willis was really bad last year in the NL, this is not going to be easier. They also are depending on guys coming off of career years (Mags, Granderson, Polonco) and old guys (Todd Jones, Sheffield, Mags knees, Pudge, Rogers). The lineup looks imposing on paper but if they dont get more pitching, they will have traded the future for a team that has a 2 year window.

The real issue may be the Marlins may have a payroll of les than 10 million next year. Why wont baseball force them to try to be competitive?

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Starting pitching is not the issue, the bullpen however is a serious issue that they need to correct. I want to know why the hell they signed Todd Jones??? The guy is terrible!!!!!

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

I've been telling all my friends for the past 2 years now that the Tigers need to get Willis, he was def. my favorite player who was not on the Tigers. Like you said Cannon, I am almost positive that for the Tigers to get Cabrera the Marlins made them take Willis off their hands as well, they wanted him gone at all cost. I said this before Cabrera became a tiger, and have always believed that he is the best offensive player in the game right now. Teams were able to pitch around Cabrera because he had no protection in that terrible lineup, and he still always put up .300+ hitting seasons. Inge will still play third for the Tigers simply because of how good he is at it, and although Cabrera is a big boy, he will go back to his days in left I think.

My gf has been bugging me about what I want for Christmas, and now she knows to get me a Tigers D-Train jersey. :D

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That pitching around stuff is overrated unless you are Barry Bonds. I would seriously doubt he will play left especially in Comerica. They did get Jaques Jones too.

Originally Posted by Crown@club

Yes. 79 walks. Ranked 25th. Not much pitching around going around there at all really.

As far as Willis goes. Last year wasn't just only bad, the year before was just as bad. He was lucky that less people scored for about the same amount people he allowed on base. 5 seasons. Good rookie season and fabulous 3rd season. But I think you are looking at what he in the 2nd and 4the seasons is what Detroit is getting. Thats good enough for 4th or 5th in the rotation, but if he can't out-do Robertson watch out. He was never considered a top-10 prospect by ANYONE when he was in Chicago. When I mean anyone, I mean outside of the Chicago organization. He reminds me of Pat Rapp. Anyone remember him? Florida pitcher, that I think in '95 I believe was the 2nd best pitcher in the NL for the 2nd half of the year behind Greg Maddux.

Actually he starting to remind me of Omar Daal. Ouch! Start out strong and then gave up 1.6 runners per inning. OUCH!

We'll see.

Originally Posted by satan's twin

This trade will spur lots of hot stove trade talks and will generate winter ticket sales and interest among the Tiger fans. But ultimately, what price have the Tigers paid for this trading season's splash? They have mortgaged the future for a one season run. The line-up is a mirror of the Yankees plan. You put a bomber in every slot with no apparent weakness and hit yourself to the World Series. There is only one problem with this plan. It's that this never works out quite like they thought it would. The nine starters will never be in a hitting groove at the same time. Sheffield and Ordonez have had recent serious injuries that are more likely to happen as they are reaching the ends of their careers. Renteria and Cabrerra will be seeing a new league and may need a time or two through to adjust to the pitching. And players coming off of career years will not be as likely to accomplish the same the next time around. Having said all this, I believe the Tigers will put up big offensive numbers next year. But offense doesn't win world championships. Pitching and defense do. Pitching will never be as glamorous or as exciting as a three-run homer. It doesn't pack the ballparks year after year like a 'murderer's row line-up will'. But it does separate the winners from the pretenders. It's no wonder that when the Tigers are garnering the headlines and winning the publicity battle, the world champion Red Sox are the only team concerned with acquiring THE only stone cold lock who will bring them a consecutive championship, Johan Santana. Whether Boston signs him or not, they are on the right track. Santana is the prize EVERY team should be after.
Pudge Rodriguez has managed to avoid a crippling injury throughout his career, but with ten plus seasons behind the plate he's a foul ball or a home plate collision away from being on the shelf for a prolonged period of time. If he is lost for any period of time, the Tigers will find out just how mediocre that staff really is. The bullpen will really be crippled by the loss of Joel Zumaya. He was one of the best middle relief pitchers out there who could bridge the game between the starters and Jones. The Tigers' young starters had tended to be flame-throwers who start out fast and crap out in mid-season. Add to the mix the ancient Kenny Rogers and a very erratic Dontrelle Willis and the Tigers win nothing. Jim Leland looks like the crypt-keeper whose long-term plan for managing appears to extend to about November 1st of next year. If he wants to see a series winner before death then he better start encouraging Dombrowski and company to get him some help on the mound.

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

I've been telling all my friends for the past 2 years now that the Tigers need to get Willis, he was def. my favorite player who was not on the Tigers. Like you said Cannon, I am almost positive that for the Tigers to get Cabrera the Marlins made them take Willis off their hands as well, they wanted him gone at all cost. I said this before Cabrera became a tiger, and have always believed that he is the best offensive player in the game right now. Teams were able to pitch around Cabrera because he had no protection in that terrible lineup, and he still always put up .300+ hitting seasons. Inge will still play third for the Tigers simply because of how good he is at it, and although Cabrera is a big boy, he will go back to his days in left I think.

My gf has been bugging me about what I want for Christmas, and now she knows to get me a Tigers D-Train jersey. :D

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Let me show you something in simple terms so you will understand.
Tigers starters and ranking by 2006 ERA (starters with more than 12 starts)
Verlander ERA 3.60 11th in AL ( solid ace of staff)
Rogers ERA 4.43 41st in AL ( was hurt but is going to be 43 years old)
Durbin ERA 4.72 48th in AL
Robertson ERA 4.76 49th in AL
Bonderman ERA 5.01 52nd in AL
Maroth ERA 5.06 53rd in AL
Willis ERA 5.17 65th in NL

I understand ERA is influenced by outside factors but considering they play in a pitching friendly park those numbers are pretty scary. Verlander is a topline number 1 starter but outside of him there are giant question marks. Rogers has had some pretty good years but is very hittable, coming off an injury and is old. Durbin is less than average, same with Robertson. Bonderman was awful late in the year after a good start and was shutdown with a bad elbow for the 2nd time in three years. Maroth is not good and Willis has regressed as stated before. This is a staff with a lot of question marks and injury risks. Matched up to Boston, LAA, Cleveland or the Yankees and they are easily the worst of the bunch.

Jones is not overpowering, is far from the prototypical closer and occasionally gets hammered but had the same amount of blown saves as KRod and Jenks and less than Borowski. He aint great but they could win with him.

Originally Posted by satan's twin

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I personally think you might want to start off with the Wizard of Oz' gift, Scarecrow.

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

???????????

Originally Posted by GBBob

Tin Man= Heart
Lion = Courage
Scarecrow=??

If I only had a.....

Originally Posted by IrishofNDMan

Satan's Twin is the funniest person on the internet, he is a regular Jerry Seinfeld.