Not again ....
 

I was looking at the Aqueduct overnights for Wednesday and Thursday. I saw Juan Rodriguez listed as the trainer for a few horses that would typically be Dutrow-trainees. Has Dutrow been suspended again? If so, for what this time and how many times does he get slaps on the wrists before the people in NY make a serious statement about him?

Looks like you slipped right past the powerful Kim Jackson string in with several too Wednesday... :eek:

She's back saddling them for Pinocchio..

That's another story...

More than enough.

Kim Jackson.

Contessa got 15 days for Lidocaine which is legal and used all over the backside. The caveat is that a horse can't be exposed to it for 96 hours prior to a race - apparently every horse, regardless of tolerance, should have zero trace of this in the blood after 96 hours, or they have some sort of a subjective threshhold, I'm not an expert by any stretch -

"In New York State Lidocaine has restricted usage labeling it a Class 2 foreign substance. A horse must have no contact with the Lidocaine substance 96 hours (4 days) prior to post time of the race in which they are entered. Whats interesting, New York State permits the use of topical applications at any time up to race".

So.... it's conceivable that a horse can test positive for it even if said horse had not been treated systemically for it within the guidelines... depends on the horse's own physiology/tolerance, as it could potentially absorb enough topically to be detected in a blood test...Gotta love it, NY.


Not making excuses for him, but it's not exactly a milkshake or EPO, which ARE used to cheat.... Why the hate Steve? :)

Is Kim Jackson, the former Kim Laudati? I know she got married, but I didn't know she took on her husband's name. Anyway, Kim has been back working for him for a while now.

Eric

Did she marry Michael?

No, heard it was Jesse

Not Phil?

as the barn turns....

Didn't know you spoke for him....After reading your post, I doubt he does too.

It's illegal and the trainer is paying the price. I don't know where you got the impression that is was "OK" to purposely break the rules - certainly not from my post.

The only point that was attempting to be debated was the vagueness of the rule, the fact that you can use this medication practically up to post time, (topically) and the crap shoot as to which ones will test positive and which ones won't.

Lidocaine doesn't give anyone any sort of racing advantage, and inadvertant overages happen every day of the week around this country, feel free to ask Nick Zito about it.

If you can't decern the difference between a minor non-perfromance inhancing legal med overage and a blantant violation of controlled substances (EPO doping, Milkshaking, et. al.) then I can see why my post went clearly over your head.

Amen!

you're kidding right? lidocaine is a painkiller....ever had novocaine at the dentist? can't feel anything for hours.....I agree that accidental overages happen, but come on...anyone can see how this drug has potential abuse written all over it, which is why it has mandatory zero test limits.

It's called "pushing the envelope." The same thing happens with the trainers that have all these clenbuterol positives; they are not as dumb as their "we don't understand the rules" statements would lead people to believe.

Over 1100 starts this year, and this is the only infraction. Hardly what any sane person would consider "potential abuse". Pais, you're point is well taken -but the fact of the matter is that there are strings of horses at every track in NY, and teams of vets, vet assistants, etc. tending to them around the clock. Human error happens.

No, this is at least Contessa's second suspension this year. When he was on the bench in July, the assistant's name at the time was Kim Laudati (see discussion above).

I agree but why does it seem to happen over and over again in some of the same barns? surely if it was just 'human error' and it kept happening the caretakers would lose their jobs?

sorry if I can't buy that certain trainers just have staff problems....if that was the case they would have made changes so that they aren't serving multiple suspensions per year.

That was bute, not lidocaine....I stand corrected 2 in 1100....Throw the bum out :eek:

Yes, that's true, but this gets to Cardus's point: how come the same individuals never seem to learn from their errors?

The "same individuals" saddle an expotential amount of mounts, with horses stabled around the country - relative to the others. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it is WRONG. Period.
Last year he saddled over 1500 mounts and had zero positives to my knowledge. Is he responsible? Absolutely. If a horse ships in from the SPA training track to AQU and tests positive, even if he personally hasn't seen the horse until race day, he is held accountable. It is his responsibility to take action with his staff to prevent it from happening again, but He ultimately pays the price. Which is fair and right.

I take issue with the fact that there are a couple of trainers that get away with murder because they "never learn"and "Get away with it" . I doubt they personally had anything at all to do with it, frankly. And more to the point, what kind of a trainer would purposely risk a very potential breakdown by knowingly violating the rules regarding lido/bute? Do you honestly believe any trainer would be in business tomorrow if that were the case? Would you give your horse to someone with that rep? I doubt it.

Same issue, same problem and unfortunately, never the same solution. Absent of zero tolerance, there is no universal solution -- not on the regulatory side, nor on the self-governing or self-policing side vis a vis the owners in this industry.

Regardless, you are not going have trainers given lifetime suspensions for a second or third offense of a legal drug that has therapeutic, everyday use on the backstretch. Period. Not only does it not happen, personally, I don't think it should. You want to talk about snake venom, designer or exotic drugs that have zero therapeutic use, steroids, etc. -- OK, great, I am all for it -- however, that is a different discussion as far as I am concerned, a very different one.

In addition, there is an entirely different dimension to this problem. Many people here critisize others -- others who don't live up to, or abide by the standards they themselves claim they would adhere to. That's fine. It's easy to be a critic. Let's see how much that changes the industry. That will never be the standard in the industry.

If you are in this game, and you run your business that way -- great, I don't think anyone should have a problem with that, nor should they care. And, Terry Finley runs his business the way he runs it, as does Jess Jackson, Satish Sanan, Cot Campbell, Coolmore, Barry Irwin, and the guy who owns the nickel claimer at Penn National. Everyone is entitled to run their business anyway they want. You don't like it -- OK, your entitled.

However, that is not going to be governing standard for the industry. Can self-policing work? In some ideal world, perhaps. In practical application, reality, I don't think so. There certainly needs to be change, drastic change, and I've supported that for years. I've contributed time, efforts, money, resources, and more to change in this business and in this sport. I've been in this game my entire adult life. I love this game. But change can go in different directions.

BTW, in this case -- postive test -- gulity! Gary will do his time, pay his fine and he'll come back. He is, should be and must be held accountable.

Eric

because there's no oversight. the industry polices itself, poorly.
asmussen is a mention for the eclipse for trainer. perfect example right there. 20-some drug positives, just came off a six month suspension, but everyone loves a winner, right? when's the last time anyone mentioned his six month 'vacation'? not since that big preakness win as far as i know...

You know, that's a very interesting point; very thought provoking.

Is it the industry's responsibility to police or govern itself? Is this the case in other sports? Rhetorical question, as this sport is very different than others. However, should it be the industry's responsibility to govern and police itself -- because the goeverning bodies can't?

Eric

I find it interesting that the same trainers who have received both numerous and serious suspensions related to drug violations are also the same trainers whose horses often show dramatic improvement when said trainers take over their care.

It's probably just a coincidence.

mine too.

yes, there is likely no connection whatsoever.

Yeah...and one of those horses won the 5th at the Big A today.:rolleyes:

I think what is telling is the CONSTANT movement. I mean if you move up 40% well then you are a good trainer, but when you are moving up 80%-90% of your claiming stock, it isn't hard to come to the assumptions that we are coming to.

It is like when Brady Anderson hit 50 HR's, everyone knew he was roiding, but Major League Baseball.

Exactly. Well Done, Eric.

Brady Anderson was roiding??? Here I thought he was the best leadoff batter in the history of leadoff batter. joking of course.

Brady Anderson was roiding??? Here I thought he was the best leadoff batter in the history of leadoff batter. joking of course.

You can say that again!

I can't wait until that list comes out. I bet you there is ZERO Cubs on it besides Sosa, which is why we have sucked for so long. Haven't had the GOOD STUFF!!!

Yeah, steroid use has really helped the Os.

Ok, they are clean too....