North Korea
 

A problem to be sure.

What no one in authority will say that everone ought to know who does not.
This is a scary country. For one major reason:

North Korea is run by a crazy fck named Kim Jong Il. He created the sun, made like 6 holes-in-one in one round of golf (or someting like that). The guy is flippin nuts.

It would almost be funny if he wasn't starving so many in his country.They would gladly eat dog,but I doubt they have many left to eat.

Crazy guy.
Gdubb seems real eager to "negotiate" with him, spent the AM talking with the other five interests.
So why not move militarily like was done with another "Axis of Evil"?
Simple answer...Kim Il has "nukular" weapons. Maybe not delivery systems ...
yet. He'll share what he has with other enemies of the USA...
Now, that's plenty scary, imo.

yeah I saw a 1/2 hour special on this MoFo yesterday, he is not right by any stretch of the imagination. sounds to me like they are not playing around, and if I was China I would be concerned

I really don't think that's the case, I think a lot of the reason we're dealing with it like this is because China is there. We don't want to piss off a sleeping giant. And to be honest...that's very wise.

Interesting quote I saw from an article today....

The Rev. Roger Ryu, pastor of Hahn-In Christian Reformed Church in Wyoming, believes North Korea has been reduced to desperate measures by its isolation and shaky economy.

"They are very desperate. They are extremely isolated," said Ryu, 57, who has lived in the United States since 1973.

"They are really looking for a free economic gift. It's like they are saying, 'I have an atomic bomb. Give me some bread.'"

Maybe. We'll just have to wait and see.
I agree, China will play big on this one.

Actually, North Korea is largely China's problem...the Chinese surely don't need some idiot with nukes next door and they are well aware of the danger he creates. His country is starving and one would think that very soon, internal opposition will arise, perhaps even from his own military.

Somer,
You know far more about this situation than I do.
Going back to the Korean War (police action), wasn't it the Chinese that came to the aid of North Korea?
Does China's largest share of foreign aid go to North Korea?
And, since the Korean War, hasn't the USA maintained a substantial military presence at the DMZ?
I only ask because I haven't kept up with our involement in this region, other than buying Chinese manufactured goods at my local Walmart.
Thanks for filling me in.
DTS

The North Koreans scare the crap out of the Japanese. Just imagine such a tightly packed island, that could easily get hit by conventional missles from a very close neighbor. We dont have that problem. (Not to mention that the Japanese did some horrible things to the Chinese and Koreans during WWII). So the Japanese are terribly concerned. And if they are concerned, we are concerned.

I think the Chinese do not have a problem with the N. Koreans causing the Japanese major anxiety. The Chinese do have a problem if this causes us to become aggressive... To give us an excuse to load the Japanese up with some anti-missle system, or worse, for us to start working intensely on anti-missle systems that actually work. The Chinese do not like that aspect at all.

Pat,
Now it's starting to make sense...Japanese missile bases. Throw Taiwan into the mix and the huge credit debt owed to China...the picture becomes much clearer.
Recent history hasn't proven China to be very good at negotiating. The memory of Tienemin Square is still a bit fresh.
I hope they are more skilled this time around.

The entire world is very concerned about our working on anti-missle systems. It scares the Russians and Chinese a great deal. We can make the logical assessment that you guys got a madman over there that wants to deal us a blow, we are going to concentrate very heavily on missile defense. Tough luck, you cant handle the madman, we must protect ourselves. They know this is the next step if Iran and N. Korea really get out of hand. That really is a huge trump card for the US. The technology is super difficult, but if any country can do it, we can.

Yeh ,I'm sure GW is skeert of North Korea, In fact ,it's probably his fault NK HAS theses "nukular" weapons, right? Of course it was Willie the Worm who gave NK the needed materials and resarch to produce the nukes in his ever-increasing effort to have everyone on the planet like us.
China is using NK as its pawn to draw closer to the US.China hates us but needs us a trade partner and consumer of its goods.
Kim Jung Il is a nutcase but he's pragmatic enough to like his Mercedes and Swedish super-models not to want to be obliterated, unlike nutcases of the Isalmic radical ilk ,who welcome death and destruction as the quick path to eternal life with Allah and the virgins.

Huh?
I'd like to see your source that "Willie the Worm" gave NK the needed materials and research to produce nukes.
Please back that absurdity with facts and a source.

Again, the thread gets reduced to political name-calling; there is plenty of blame on both sides of the American political spectrum for the mess we face today throughout the world...better to concentrate on how to survive it! North Korea is untouchable to the US unless we plan on wiping out China also...something we could do but hopefully isn't a viable consideration. Iran, I honestly believe is "pissing into the wind" when it tries to scare the likes of Israel...we will probably wake up some morning to the news that the folks from Israel had enough and half of Iran is gone, the other half radioactive. I agree that the Iranian situation may become the most problematic over time, but right now...we should allow China to negotiate with North Korea, if that fails...I agree with Pgardn, some sabre rattling (or in this case, anti-missile system development talk) should spur even the nut job in NK to start considering how he'd attract models as a pile of glowing dust.

Somer,
I agree with much of your statements.
As far as anti-missile systems, yes, we have some but not as well refined as may need to be. I also agree with Pgardn that if any country can develop the requisite technology, the USA can, with time for further development.
So, I'll go back to my assertion that China will play a huge role in helping to resolve the NK issue, and if they do, they will gain great credibility in the world's community opinion, as the US's has diminished.
It's completely in their interests if they do so.
DTS

You want my source !! I could tell you but then I'd have to have you terminated.
Facts....you mean like the ones you throw around ? No thanks.I ran out of bulls**t the first time the police questioned me after defending my best bud when some people were going to use him for tee-ball practice.

I thought so, your words proved it.
You would have me terminated? LOL!!!!!!

In my beloved USA, we have freedom of speech without BS threats of silencing.

Back to your cave Indep Geo.

Back to the original topic:

President Bush said today that he believes the nation's nascent missile defense system would have had a "reasonable chance" of shooting down a long-range missile launched by North Korea had it come close to the United States

This is the prompt to kick Russian and China in the butt. A little more money and work put into this, and it works. This makes em shudder.

Wish I could agree Pat.
Testing so far is five out of ten...when we knew where they'd be coming from, and when they were launched.
We still have a ways to go with development. The Chinese and the Russians know this as well. 50% isn't good enough.

Very true. But we CAN get it right and they know it. I guarantee you China and Russia DO NOT want us working on this system at all. It is a big bargaining chip and Bush is pushing it in.

Interesting that the US destroyer showed up today in Japan, loaded with the best anti-missile systems we have.
And it was stated that this was already scheduled.
Now let's see what China has to say.

Try this ...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...7/164846.shtml

But Indy George had one thing wrong ... the Sink Emperor didn't give away our technology because he wanted to be liked ...

... he did it for a much more practical reason ... cold, hard cash for his and his consort's campaigns and enrichment. Same as he did with advanced missle technology to China.

Edit: Here's another one ... http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...le.asp?ID=5368

Second Edit: Here's what it says in the left-wing Wikipedia (emphasis added) ...

"In 1994, Clinton negotiated and signed the Nuclear Accords with North Korea. The underlying concern was that North Korea was developing nuclear weapons technology under the guise of a nuclear power plant. In exchange for assistance with energy needs, North Korea agreed to abandon all ambitions for acquiring nuclear weapons. However, by the mid 1990s defectors from North Korea, along with reports from the IAEA, indicated that North Korea was violating both the Nuclear Accords and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."

"In exchange for assistance with energy needs" means Clinton gave away nuclear technology secrets in exchange for a promise ... which was broken before the ink was dry.

Third Edit: Here's the best one yet ... from the colossal fool Jimmuh Carter's own website ... in which he brags about his role in getting North Korea's "assurances" that the nuclear technology they've just been given (1994) will not be used to develop nuclear weapons ... http://www.cartercenter.org/doc221.htm

Need any more sources? You surely believe Jimmuh "Ah will nevuh lah to yoo" Carter, don't you?

For those of you who don't have time to read all the articles I cited above documenting ... as requested ...the nuclear giveaways of the Clinton "administration" ... here's an excerpt from one of them ...

"Under the final terms of the Agreed Framework approved in October of 1994, Clinton agreed to provide the 'Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea' (DPRK) with two light water nuclear reactors and a massive allotment of oil. The U.S. agreed to ship 500,000 metric tons of oil annually in response to the North's pretense that the energy-starved backwater had developed the nuclear facility to generate power. These shipments have cost taxpayers more than $800 million to date - a bargain compared with the $6 billion spent on constructing the nuclear reactors, which now empower North Korea to produce 100 nuclear bombs each year.

All these measures failed to quell the North's atom-lust.

In August 1998, North Korea lobbed a Taepo Dong 1 missile over Japan. Four months later, officials refused U.S. inspectors access to a suspected underground nuclear reactor at Kumchang-ni. President Clinton then sweetened the deal by rewarding Kim Jong Il's half-year-long stall tactics with 1.1 million tons of food worth nearly $200 million. Not surprisingly, American inspectors found no signs of wrongdoing at the long-sanitized facility.

Even this seemingly humanitarian food aid turned into a weapon in North Korea's hands. Reports abound that rations have been re-directed to the DPRK's military, the fifth largest in the world. This is nothing new. Using food as a weapon dates back at least to Stalin. Communist Ethiopia similarly misused international aid in the 1980s. With this in mind, Rep. Benjamin Gilman, R-NY, warned in 1999, '(A)ny food aid we provide to North Korea . . . must be monitored to prevent diversion to the military and the party cadre. Unscheduled, unsupervised visits by American Korean-speaking monitors would assist us in this regard.' It didn't happen.

It seems little wonder North Korea has made threats of nuclear conflagration its only functional export industry, besides the weapons themselves. Even as floods and famine emaciated its nearly 22 million citizens, regime leaders in this 'worker's paradise' earmarked every available dollar for guns, not butter, in the hope that Uncle Sam would pay their price without demanding accountable disarmament. Their gamble paid off. Clinton's appeasement programs made North Korea the leading recipient of foreign aid in the Asia-Pacific region.

Clinton's policy toward North Korea, a queer amalgamation of Clement Atlee and Alfred E. Newman, has proven disastrous. The most isolated nation in the world has possessed a nuclear weapon capable of striking the United States (the Taepo Dong 2 missile) since at least 1999. Its modern-day commissars have threatened to use these missiles against America a minimum of three times in 21 months. After kicking UN inspectors out of the Yongbyong facility, the short trip to full nuclear status has been quickly engaged."

End of excerpt.

Bold B,
Did you read the articles you cited?
The first one states this:

"Pakistan also benefited from the trade in weaponry. The missiles-for-nukes trade gave Pakistan an operational means to deliver its atomic bombs.

Pakistan has since successfully test-fired and deployed its own version of the No Dong missile, called the Ghauri. The North Korean-designed missile has a range of nearly 900 miles and can cover virtually all of India, Pakistan's rival in Southwest Asia.

The ultimate irony here is that the North Korean No Dong and Tae Po Dong missiles are based on technology given to Pyongyang by China. In 1994, the Wall Street Journal revealed that Chinese-made CSS-2 missile technology had found its way into North Korean hands."

Last time I looked in my history book, Clinton never was the President of Pakistan nor China. In my recent memory, GW Bush has been the only US president to visit Pakistan.

Regarding former president Carter, I really don't see a problem with his attempt to find a peaceful outcome 14 years ago. Yes, 14 years ago.
Now I'm certain that you'll go to your rightwing sites and find other "facts" to connect current events to their "real root causes". I'm sure there's a connect with Woodrow Wilson at one of them, if you look hard enough.
Or, was it F D Roosevelt that created these events?

Bold B,
I've read all three of the articles you cited.
Now, read one that I put up:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0708-21.htm

You're mixing your apples and your oranges.

Clinton didn't give away missile technology to North Korea ... he gave away nuclear technology to them.

The missile technology was given away to China ... in return for campaign contributions. You remember all those Chinese arms dealers who practically moved into the White House ... don't you? And the Chicoms passed it along to the Paks and North Koreans.

That's pretty clear now ... isn't it?

Jimmuh was a boob 14 years ago ... 14 days ago ... and 14 minutes ago.

Everyone wants to "find a peaceful outcome" ... but Jimmuh stinks at it. Please don't waste your time trying to defend this utter embarrassment.

I managed to struggle through it ... and there's really no "there" there.

No U.S. president is going to publicly reveal what our actual military or intelligence capabilites are. The writer of this article ... and the reporters at that press conference ... certainly don't know what they are.

The leftists scoffed at President Reagan ... The Destroyer of the Beloved Soviet Union ... when he first proposed a missle defense system. Now it turns out that such a system is exactly what we need in this age of rogue tinpots with potential nuclear and long-range missle capabilites.

Whether the system is currently effective or not ... and none of us civilians knows that ... it can surely be made effective by good old American know-how and ingenuity.

Would you prefer that we didn't have a missile defense system?

And please tell us what you got from this article ... to me there was not a blessed thing there.

Yeah ... all of that too

And you left out Amy ... a "nucular" expert and political confidant when she was only nine years old.

But Billy was OK ... anyone who relieves himself by peeing off the roof of the White House ... can't be all that bad.

That was the least embarrassing thing this family ever did.

I bet if we fired one at them that would be all it would take for them to back the f*ck up.

Honu,
I hope you're kidding. Other things should be done before it comes to this.
South Korea would be in the path of the fall out, and certainly have a lot to say before hand.

btw, I like your racing insights and the news you share.

Here's something that I'd like to share with you, a Korean recipe.

Kim Kui (toasted seaweed)

10 sheets seaweed (one package)
3 tablespoons sesame-seed oil
1 teaspoon salt

Brush seaweed with sesame-seed oil, sprinkle with salt, and toast over an open flame, in hot frying pan, or in a broiler until the seaweed turns green.
Cut into quarters. Makes 6 to 8 servings.

Enjoy.

Well I was only half serious about firing one at them , but I do think we should sanction the life out of them. Cut them off, no more aid , no more money , nothing period.
Thanks for the seaweed recipe cant say that Ive ever ate much of it except in a sushi roll.

Honu,
The USA has given the NK's over a billion in foreign aid since 1995. The bulk of it has been given during the present administration.
Unfortunately, the WFP (World Food Program) doesn't really know where the rice is sold. It shows up in black markets and on the streets (for cash).
The people for which it intended are, in fact, eating seaweed. That's why I posted the recipe.
It's a very crazy place.
Sanctions will hurt the common people. Kim il Jong won't feel the least bit impact. For sure, he eats very well. Photos of him bear this out.
The common people are powerless to do much. Public executions cause terror in the populace. Though there is a growing resistance movement, it seems to me that going against this insanity where you need a travel permit to move from village to village, city to city, with armed guards (shoot to kill orders) patrolling the northern border crossing the river to China.
It's a huge mess. In my humble view, santions from the US won't do it. China
and South Korea have a much bigger voice, as they have both been the biggest providers of foreign aid. I'll wait to hear them speak.

btw...seaweed is pretty good. I like it with fresh fish. That's a luxury I have, that they don't. They eat it as a main course.

You're 100% correct ... the only hope for the North Koreans is if one or more of the generals get pizzed-off at that little psycho ... and drills him one.

Maybe someone will emerge from their military ... or elsewhere ... who has a drop of humanity ...

... otherwise the savages will continue to rule ... and the poor Koreans of the north will live in utter misery ... while their blood-brothers in the south live in freedom and prosperity.

What are you smoking Bold B? You actually are agreeing with me and said I was 100% correct!!!!
You heard it here first folks!

Now, maybe he'll pass along whatever has clouded his consciousness.
Unbelievable.

No narcotics or stimulants are ever needed ... just the tiniest of impulses among my neurons. Remember ... a fraction of infinity ... is still infinity.

And someday you'll learn ... perhaps ... though you obviously haven't caught on yet ...

... that I'm always on the side of freedom.

I also do not approve of mind altering substances.

"Obviously, I haven't caught on yet"...huh? You need a mirror.

Are you implying that I'm not on the side of freedom?
If so, you are delusional. My guess is that reading all of that right wing propaganda has effected your precious neurons.

You are ridiculous.