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miles2135 02-22-2007 04:13 PM

English Channel- Track Record
 
English Channel ran 1 1/8 miles in an impressive 1:44.51 which is a new track record. I dont really know how many quality horses have run 1 1/8 over Gulfstream's turf course but that still is an impressive time and victory. Hopefully he will make his trip to Dubai a victorious one and come back to the states and finish out his season impressively. I bet the connections are regretting not running him in the G1 this weekend.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miles2135
I bet the connections are regretting not running him in the G1 this weekend.

I'm sure they aren't.

Wisely, a trainer as competent as Pletcher knows that it would be a folly to bring a horse like that back, in a 3-turn, 11 furlong turf race.

The fractions in the GP BC Turf last year went in 26 and change and 51 2/5ths. An agressive horse, like EC, who sometimes pulls hard in the early stages of his races, would not settle well at all in a race like that. Especially fresh and off the layoff

I'm sure EC could have beaten that field, even after being strangled for a few furlongs, but that is just a tremendously silly spot to bring a horse like him back in.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 04:30 PM

Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

I guess second place finisher, the mighty Mending Fences, must be the early US favorite for the BC Mile.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

Keeping taking swipes at my religion all you want....

You intolerant bastard

hoovesupsideyourhead 02-22-2007 04:50 PM

hes not doing that well from what i see.. struggled to win today vs ..in reality 50 claimers......

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 04:53 PM

I'm not so sure he struggled....that will probably come when he faces real horses in Dubai.

I'd say he ran a fairly ideal comeback race.

Now he's feed for the wolves

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies

And you are right--I don't really believe the 26 and change and 51 and change fractions posted in last years GP BC Turf....

It was probably more like 27 and change and 53 flat. Einstein won wire-to-wire, but if you remember the race---Cornelio Velasquez got in a world class wrestling match with Gun Salute to keep him off the lead.

GPK 02-22-2007 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead
hes not doing that well from what i see.. struggled to win today vs ..in reality 50 claimers......


you ain't baiting me with that sh*t. You have seen enough races in your life to know what you saw today.

I was glad to see he was no where near as rank early on as he has been in the past. Settled much better today.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Anyone who actually believes the times Gulfstream posts for their turf races must also believe in elves and fairies ( which leaves DrugS open ).

I guess second place finisher, the mighty Mending Fences, must be the early US favorite for the BC Mile.

Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.

GPK 02-22-2007 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.


None taking bro...the track record don't mean much really.

I was just telling hooves he wasn't baiting me with that "hes not doing well from what I see" comment.

Johnny never touched him...shook him a few times...but never touched him. It was a perfect comeback race that I doubt took anything at all out of him.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Am I agreeing with cynical Andy? What is this world coming to?...No offense Kev and the rest, but the record means nothing here. Not only do you need to handtime GP races, but since they redesigned the track and kept the turf rock hard, the times have been ridiculous. Horses running 8.5 on the turf in 1:39 in change were getting like 100 Beyers and nothing more....It was a useful comeback, but this is not a situation where people should be jumping up and down over the record. And I'm not taking a shot at the horse here who shows up everytime and is a great animal.


You didn't really just refer to English Channel as " great "....right?

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
You didn't really just refer to English Channel as " great "....right?

Depends on what you think of as great. He isn't an "all-time great" by any means. He is right now one of a handful of the best American turf horses we have. He is as consistent as they come and has won what 3 Grade 1s at this point? 4? I don't know....Maybe the great was an homage to Kev. Maybe not.

horseofcourse 02-22-2007 10:18 PM

He's a non-gelded multiple grade 1 winner still running at 5. That's great, even if he isn't in the classic sense.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:19 PM

Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

Semantics. My fault.

horseofcourse 02-22-2007 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

English Channel is nothing special...my point was just the fact that he still walks to the track is special...the deed of still running and being a good horse at age 5.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:25 PM

It's really just a pet peeve of mine...the way " great " is thrown around. And, having seen some truly remarkable horses over the years it bothers me the casualness with which people throw around the term. I feel insulted for the few great ones there were that they are thrown into the same category as so many lessers we have seen recently. These days we don't even get a chance to find out if a horse is great, as they get retired so quickly, and for that reason I guess we should be happy English Channel is still around.

GPK 02-22-2007 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Being better than weak competition is nowhere close to greatness. English Channel is an exceptionally good horse, who has kept his form for a long time now, and he's a commendable racehorse. However, he has never overcome a scintilla of adversity or beaten a particularly good horse. No, it's not his fault the competition has been weak, but he has failed to deliver even a marginally good effort in his three biggest races....the Arlington Million and two BC Turfs.

Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.


Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

Coach Pants 02-22-2007 10:25 PM

To me he looked impressive today and could have a great year. He is 5, afterall.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:28 PM

Let's be honest, the primary reason he is still racing is most likely that he has very little stud value, and may be worth more racing. I'm not complaining, as I am glad he's around and look forward to betting against him, just being realistic.

Scav 02-22-2007 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3B
Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

His Million was ridiculous. Class alone got him 4th or whatever he finished, EC needed a xanax that day

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Take a look at some of the races Theatrical and Manila ran back in the late 80s. I'm not sure they were great....but they would have devoured English Channel. Theatrical won six or seven Grade 1s in 1987, from February through November, and Manila easily bested him in that year's Arlington Million ( unfortunately his last start ). Now those were really exceptional horses.

In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses who beat him were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3B
Help me Andy...in all sincerity...give me your view of why the AM or the 2 BC Turf races were not even "marginally good"

He was ineffectual against a very weak field this year ( Red Rocks and Better Talk Now? ), he got drowned in 2005, and in the Arlington Million, while he dealt with a slow pace, it shouldn't have hurt him, as he has the speed to stay close ( and has run some of his better races on the pace ), and he had absolutely nothing in the stretch.

Losing by three lengths in turf races is like losing by six on the dirt in my opinion.

GPK 02-22-2007 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses he beat were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

thank you....and the fact that EC was 3 wide through all 3 turns and still ran on pretty well at the end...

GPK 02-22-2007 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
He was ineffectual against a very weak field this year ( Red Rocks and Better Talk Now? ), he got drowned in 2005, and in the Arlington Million, while he dealt with a slow pace, it shouldn't have hurt him, as he has the speed to stay close ( and has run some of his better races on the pace ), and he had absolutely nothing in the stretch.

Losing by three lengths in turf races is like losing by six on the dirt in my opinion.


He was 3 YO and that was his first race EVER against older horses....and he was the top finishing American horse in that race....and was moved too early as well.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
In regard to American turf horses, Manila and Theatrical both have to be considered great in my opinion.

From the forms and charts I've studied, and films I've seen, I would cast a vote for Manilla as the best American turf horse of all-time.

I actually thought English Channel's 3rd in the Breeders Cup Turf was a pretty solid effort---the two horses who beat him were aided by a ridiciously fast pace, and came from last and 2nd to last.

Manila was a monster. A running machine.

One of Theatrical's Grade 1s that year was bogus, as Dance of Life drowned him in the Sword Dancer at Belmont and got unjustifiably Dq'd. Of course, Manila also lost the Bernard Baruch to Talakeno in his prep for the Arlington Million.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:38 PM

Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious

GPK 02-22-2007 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious


surely Sun King...:rolleyes:

The Indomitable DrugS 02-22-2007 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Manila was a monster. A running machine.

One of Theatrical's Grade 1s that year was bogus, as Dance of Life drowned him in the Sword Dancer at Belmont and got unjustifiably Dq'd. Of course, Manila also lost the Bernard Baruch to Talakeno in his prep for the Arlington Million.

I never saw film of the Baruch---he did give the winner 12lbs that day.

He certainly really showed up when the chips were down---Manilla won all 5 of his career attempts in Grade 1 races. Including shipping to Southern California and beating the deepest BC Turf field of all time.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Andy, who were the last two great horses on turf and dirt? Just curious


I'm pretty stingy, but Skip Away and Formal Gold certainly came close IMO, and maybe Manila on the turf. I'm not sure I would call her great but Ouiji Board sure feels pretty special. But it's hard for me to get a real handle on Euros.

Come to think of it, Lure may have been close.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
I never saw film of the Baruch---he did give the winner 12lbs that day.

He certainly really showed up when the chips were down---Manilla won all 5 of his career attempts in Grade 1 races. Including shipping to Southern California and beating the deepest BC Turf field of all time.

Well, Dancing Brave apparently lost over 100 pounds and was pretty freaked out and clearly didn't show up.

But, Manila was a tiger that day. I was actually there.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3B
surely Sun King...:rolleyes:

I don't overrate the horses I happen to like. I just root for them.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I'm pretty stingy, but Skip Away and Formal Gold certainly came close IMO, and maybe Manila on the turf. I'm not sure I would call her great but Ouiji Board sure feels pretty special. But it's hard for me to get a real handle on Euros.

Come to think of it, Lure may have been close.

You know what it is than, your definition of great is "all-time great." Which is fine.

GPK 02-22-2007 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I don't overrate the horses I happen to like. I just root for them.


deep breaths....it was a joke.

Coach Pants 02-22-2007 10:43 PM

Ghostzapper could've been. Woulda coulda shoulda...story of this goddamn game the past few decades.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants
Ghostzapper could've been. Woulda coulda shoulda...story of this goddamn game the past few decades.

Mineshaft was. Not even a question.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35
Mineshaft was. Not even a question.

I think Ghostzapper was great. I forgot him.

I think Mineshaft was a terrific horse.

randallscott35 02-22-2007 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I think Ghostzapper was great. I forgot him.

I think Mineshaft was a terrific horse.

YES!!!! That a boy. Another reason you are my hero.

blackthroatedwind 02-22-2007 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3B
deep breaths....it was a joke.


Thanks for clearing that up.....I was very upset.

I was just about to start a thread saying I was leaving.

GPK 02-22-2007 10:47 PM

I haven't been around racing long enough to characterize any horse as "great", I so know jack sh*t basically:D


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