And then we can cut veteran's benefits and health care because I mean, really, they were getting paid while they were serving, I don't see why they keep getting freebies after they're done serving. It's not like taking care of them is doing me any good. They can just go out and get employer-provided health care at private jobs like the rest of us. And if they can't, well, that's not my problem if they were too dumb to avoid getting shot or bombed or did something stupid like lose limbs because they picked up a live grenade (That's what people like Rush said about Max Cleland, after all, and he would know.) Life's tough. They were getting paid while they were serving; that should be enough for them, like it is for the rest of us.

See? Medicare and veteran's benefits. Man, this budget cutting stuff is easy!

My point. I think you're missing it.

Yup. The above fits Rush Limbaugh to a tee - judging by his own public words.

Which is precisely why I described Rushbo by the word racist. Because he is.

I'm happy to hear that, but you sure sounded serious and not far removed from what Obama has intimated.

LOL - no, most obviously not! :D

S - a - r - c - a - s - m

Fixing the economy would be job #1. The President, however, has little impact on what the economy does despite the beliefs of most. He can't make snap-your-fingers changes that instantly change the course of the general economy- in fact the vast majority of fiscal policy is set by the Federal Reserve (central bank lending rates, money flow, etc.) Rates too low for too long, overexpansion and inflation; rates too high for too long, curtailed investment and recession. That being said, I think we are making positive strides based on indicators, despite my personal wealth saying different.

Economic indicators:
Jan '09 -> Apr '10
Dow Jones Average: 8738 -> 11005
Change in Nonfarm Payrolls: Down 750k -> Up 160k (a strong leading indicator)
Unemployment Rate: 8.3% -> 9.6% (a lagging indicator)
Retail Sales: -3% -> +1.5%
CPI: +0.1% -> +0.1% (measure of inflation)
Housing Starts: 450k -> 600k (Jan '09 was a historical low)
Existing Home Sales: 4.5MM -> 5.0MM

Thank you, 'Zig.

Of course it's a silly view - I meant it to be silly in response to your saying you want to keep the money spent on Israel at home.

And the isolation practice of the 1800's worked then, but it's not going to work now. To compare the two times is history is ludicrous.

No one is afraid of America anymore because we've lost our desire to actually dig in and fight a war. Why the heck fight a war if we're not in it to win it. Stay the heck home, save money, and save lives.

Borders should be secured north and south - not as an affront to either nation but as a means of keeping America safe. We're not back in the days when crossing borders was no big thing. But we have terrorists, drug runners, and convicted criminals escaping justice who need to be stopped cold in their tracks. It just isn't the same USA prior to 1979 when all hell broke loose and the USA humiliating itself by not taking a firm stance from day one of the Iran Embassy takeover. We've been treated as weak and pushovers ever since, and we haven't done much to prove that we're not.

Prejudice is an opinion without any means of support.

Discrimination is treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit.

I can't believe I'm actually trying to explain this, since it's clear that you are that thing that makes me fear most for the future of this great nation, a willfully low-information voter, but I am a sucker for lost causes (Odysseus having been one of my fantasy stable choices):

First of all, there is no "Medicare savings bank" to pay anyone back out of. That money is not put in a savings account; it is contributed by hard-working slobs such as myself EVERY YEAR so that old folk like you can afford to go to the doctor. If they were to end the program there would be no one to pay back and it would end right away, not in some mythical manner where there is magically money for all of you retired folk to continue to get yours for free. The money you may or may not have contributed yourself (since you just have to be old to qualify, not old and a life-long wage earner, as you do with Social Security) has long since been spent on people who are now dead. There. Is. No. Savings. Account. For. Medicare.

Second of all, regarding your "Flat Tax Good! VAT Bad!" statements from earlier- they are very similar so make up your mind, good? Or bad? Because they're essentially the same damn thing. They are both consumption taxes. And you know who bears the brunt of consumption taxes? Why, the poor and middle class, who spend far more of their income on consumption than the wealthy, who generally have enough money to buy food and necessities and still have money left over. What both of those taxes do is shift the tax burden even farther from the wealthy than it is being shifted already. As it is, the wealthy pay a lower percentage of their income in tax than the middle class, and it's because of the idiotic belief that capital gains should be taxed at 15 percent, not at the same level as wages. But hey, the rich might, just might start a business! Which they don't; they look for more investment opportunities with quick turnarounds and then you get credit default swaps. And those have worked out really well for us, haven't they? What's your home worth lately?

Third, this will break your Reagan Was the Best Thing Since Jesus heart, but the truth about the Soviet Union is that as early as the 1970's it was known the nation wasn't going to last. We knew, long before Reagan blew up our budget with his military fetish, that they were going to collapse economically. Did building the miliary speed it up? Maybe, but what did we get from that? The Soviets, for all that Ohmigawd, Communism is the Worstest Thing Ever, were a nation with essentially the same goals at the US- we weren't going to war with them in the 1980's because neither side wanted to die. Mutually Assured Destruction, remember it? Negative sounding, but remarkably effective in maintaining detente. What Reagan did was blow up an economy that, through bi-partisan work, had been fairly well built up over the previous 40 years, and now, 30 years later, we're seeing it all come to a head. And it's not good.

(Side note to Nascar- one year and 3 months is enough time to undo how many years of economic malfeasance? Seriously, dude? Seriously? You know, I read comments on blogs about how right-wingers will get all pissy and say, "But, but, but Obama's had a year and things aren't better yet!" and I think, "Oh come on. No one is that ridiculous and would really think anything that asinine." Sir, I stand corrected.)

Fourth, the health care reform that you're yelling about IS NOT A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. Why you right-wingers can't get that through your heads is beyond me. Oh, right, because you don't actually bother to do any research, you just gobble up whatever Rushbo tells you because he's more entertaining than reading what's actually in any of these things Congress writes. (And yes, Congress wrote the bill, not Obama. Congress creates law; the Court interprets it; the Pres enforces it. How hard is this to understand?) In fact, a lot of this bill is exactly what the Republicans wanted in 1993, and some of it is stuff McCain campaigned on in 2008. And this is not secret knowledge; it's all been right out there for ages.

Doreen, I'm a screaming liberal. I believe in Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, veteran's benefits and while we're on the subject, gay marriage, anti discrimination laws (including ones to protect the elderly, who I think are incredibly discriminated against, especially when they have to go back to work) and anything else that helps to give everyone the best possible chance to be productive. And I don't benefit from a single one of these government programs- I'm working, have employer-provided health insurance and have been blessed with a pretty good constitution so that I've never had a chronic debilitating illness; mine have been temporary (Timm, thanks again for the advice on my shoulder, by the way; it's doing great now). Hell, I'm almost six months pregnant and I still go running 3 times a week. But I know that life can be crummy and dark and unexpected and I believe in safety nets to catch those who might being having it tougher than I am. Whether it's their own fault or not, I don't care. It's not my business to judge; it's my business to see that they don't starve and can take their kids to the doctor.

And I don't understand the right-wing, "I got mine, f*ck the rest of you all." And I don't understand the right-wing "If the other side wants it, I'm against it!" Because I really do think right-wingers confuse politics with sports and their party with their favorite sports team. If the Dems do something good for the country (and this health care reform, flawed as it is, is MUCH better than the status quo), it's not a blow against right-wingers; it's a victory for all of us. Likewise the Republicans, when they... if they... okay, I'm sure they've done some good stuff for the middle class; I'm just having trouble thinking of an example. But anyway, if, when, they do something positive, it's good for all of us. And when each side does something bad (invading Iraq, for which there's plenty of blame on both sides), it's not an occasion for the other side to celebrate; it's bad for all of us. Because believe me, we liberals were not celebrating when it became clear our gov't lied us into war. We were upset and angry and despairing because it's not about seizing political advantage; it's about a bunch of young men and women, woefully underpaid, dying or being maimed overseas for no goddamn good reason. Just like healthcare is not about Dems winning; it's about getting people who can't get healthcare coverage covered so they can get and stay healthier. And the Republicans could have been part of that and they chose not to because they want to keep you all screaming and waving your foam "We're # 1" fingers, rather than actually taking the time to really look at what's being proposed.

And, if you've even gotten this far, you're not going to take in a word of it, because it's so much easier and more satisfying to just pick a team and root for that team and not bother to take the time (and it takes time) to actually get to the bottom of what's being said and proposed and come to a conclusion about it. It's much easier to listen to entertainers tell you what to think and you get the emotional high of getting angry, too. And that makes me feel bad for you, and annoyed at myself for wasting my time trying to explain this, but I can't help it. We all have our windmills, and I guess low-information voters are mine. Well, better that than shooting up, I guess.

I know it seems you can't go a page without poking at me, but to repeat, I'm not taking credit for the fantasy crap you continually make up out of thin air about "what I believe" or "think" :D

LOL - I don't see the point. I think "implosion" will be a self-fulfilling prophesy with much of this bunch, needing no help from any outside their group. If not, more power to 'em. See ya in line at the voting booth.

Met Jack Conway's uncle today, seems they are really hoping Rand Paul wins the GOP nomination for Senator here in KY, and the most extreme candidate is the opposition.

And Stately Victor is gonna win the Derby ;)

wow, that was condescending, but a fantasy for sure (NOT A GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER and MUCH beter than the status quo:zz:. That's a scream).

So we should act tough with a strong military, but be a big softie when people come calling for money? What exactly does that do for average Americans other than cost a lot of money?

We don't need to act tough anymore. The age of imperialism is long but over. The country should worry about what goes on inside our borders and forget about what the kooks in desert lands on the other side of the globe think of us. There is a select culture that will always hate us for being America and there's absolutely no chance that will ever change.

My God in heaven, GR, I don't think the Epistle to the Romans was as lengthy.

But I shall try and respond with a bit more brevity to some of your more outrageous comments.

The Federal Government should pay back to SS and Medicare all the money it "borrowed" from those programs. Those funds should have gone into a special account instead of a general fund where they were just frittered away on programs other than what hard workers were forced to pay into. Have you ever taken into consideration the number of people who paid into these program but died before they had time to collect and no one benefits from that money?!~

You call me an uninformed voter? Why? Because I don't agree with liberal claptrap? I pride myself with being very well informed from local politics right on up to voting for the POTUS. So, if you want to convince me of the error of my ways or a way of looking at your point of view, don't insult me. If I'm as stupid or ignorant as you make me out to be, why the heck are you spending time arguing with me.

The VAT will be in addition to all the other taxes we already pay. The Flat Tax (edit - not Flat Tax; I mean the Fair Tax) would be the only tax. Got it?!~

Reagan spent wisely. We would be long recovered from that spending if Clinton hadn't tore down the military to balance his budget, and then Bush had to respend in inflated year 2000 - 2008 $$$'s to rebuild.

The Healthcare Plan is not a government program?????

Let me see if I've got this straight. We're being gifted with a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, signed by a President who also hasn't read it, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, to be overseen by a surgeon general who has weight problems, and financed by a country that's broke. Those of us with healthcare are going to get less healthcare but pay more, and those who have no health care will wait years before they do get it, but they'll be paying for it in the meantime. IRS will increase in size, as to the number of employes, to monitor everyone.

I'm sure I left a LOT out.

What the hell could possibly go wrong?

"I got mine, f*ck the rest of you all." What the ....?

Just to inform you about something that you are tragically unaware, conservatives are the biggest supporters and contributors to charities - something that Obama doesn't want to see happen anymore. No - he wants to take more of our paychecks and retirement checks and decide where the money will be donated. So spare me the false accusations of miserly, stingy, and uncaring conservatives. Truly just about the most classless, callous, untrue accusation I've seen in print in this entire debate about left vs. right. Nobody handed me what I have. My husband and I worked long and hard so we're not on the dole in our retirement. You'll pardon me if I just don't want to hand off what I have to some people who just want it because they think they are due and the government owe them.

GR - if you're going to come at me with your holier than thou, know more than me attitude, you better have better ammunition because, for the most part, you're shooting blanks.

Rand Paul good.
Trey Grayson very, very, very bad.

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. We can be tough and still have a heart. And, I'm not as afraid about "kooks in other lands" as I've become of the "kooks in D.C.", and not all of them are Democrats.

When are people like you going to get it through your heads that these two things are not mutually exclusive? The former is an avenue to achieve the latter.

And you can't possibly be that simple to think that any president who does something unpopular is automatically acting only out of self-interest. That presupposes that the majority of Americans know exactly what's best for the country despite the complexity of the issues.

Hell, Obama said on the campaign trail that he wouldn't always do what's popular. You'd prefer a president that always does what the polls say most people want, despite an often misinformed public? Seriously? What if the majority of the public isn't on your side? Would you still be down for that?

Even though I hated most of Bush's decisions, I'm not foolish enough to criticize him simply for not adhering to what polls say people want. I also had to laugh at you talking about how everything should be about the economy, then two sentences later, whining about how Obama's not doing enough to stop Mexican drug dealers? Way to stay on base.

Yeah, this is one interesting race!

Sure we can! Say... got another dollar I can tax you on so I can spend it on a bigger military or send it to Israel?


So your choice... less tough and less heart, but less money out of your pocket, or more tough and more heart, and more money out of your pocket. What you say?

I hate these attacking commercials. Followed by a group orgy "supporting" the guy from their party they just trashed in the primaries. Rand Paul is the son of the most conservative guy in Congress but he's far more progressive than his father and far, far, far more progressive than that kook Trey Grayson, whom I half expect to move his campaign office to the Creation Museum...

I've already answered that question - big military, small government, low taxes. That's how we can accomplish "tough with a heart". The tough part (a strong military) is the responsibility of the government as outlined in the Constitution. The heart comes from the people themselves - the generous, caring, compassionate people of the U.S. who never failed to reach into their pockets to help others in need. And, if we werent' taxed out of our eyeballs already and tax programs to be heaped on an already overtaxed population, we could get back to being generous. But who the heck has any money leftover anymore, or how many people who are struggling to find a job have enough money to pay for even the barest of life's essentials.

This country is in the toilet and the big flush is soon to come.

What do the rest of them do? Bounce around from social program to social program? You realize that billions of dollars in withheld taxes earned by illegals are kept by the govt rather than be paid back. You do realize that illegals do the cheap labor jobs that Americans wont do which means that those businesses which employ them continue to be in business or remain profitable. You know like food growers, restaurants, landscaping business, temp jobs. The vast majority of them dont rely on govt services for anything as they are afraid of being turned in and sent back.

Sure, sounds great. Big military- how about 20X bigger than the next guy? We're already at 8X. Hell, why not go to 100X? Bigger military than we already have is absurd.

So sending $25 billion to Israel is being generous? Or should we expect people to send that money out of pocket? That's $100 per person. We can do it!

Let me ask you this: how has the effective tax rate changed over the last 30 years? How much do you expect your taxes to increase for 2011?

it is always interesting to see how the other side sees things. telling but interesting.


I especially liked it when the argument was made for capital gains to be taxed at the same rate as 'wages'. This of course fails to understand that capital gains are the result of invested money being "risked", there is no presumption of profit as there is with wages. You see when investing you may actually lose money which combined with a high tax rate provides less incentive to take that risk. Remember that those who earn wages are profiting on the backs of other peoples risks.

Of course those 'rich' people do create the jobs no matter how hard you want this to not be true.

And the blather about the healthcare bill providing ecomonic relief as opposed to the opposite ignores what has happened since its passage, namely the majority of the countries biggest employers plans to dump tens of millions of people onto govt's dole. You see the way the financing was rigged so that the thing passed depended on business simply taking the hit when that most certainly wont happen no matter how many hearings Waxman calls.

I earned the right to receive retirement pay and veteran benefits just like every person who does at least 20 years in the military. I still have to work to make ends meet. If you dont like the fact that I earned it then tough sh t. Because people volunteer for the service there is no need for the draft. Its also not my problem you dont have good health insurance. Its also not my problem if you cant get health insurance. Im guessing you didnt do anytime in the service you how can make up your smart ass remark a person being dumb not to avoid hand grenanade. I guess you think it okay seeing all these soldiers coming home in body bags and soldiers missing limbs. Not my problem if where you work at doesnt have a retirement plan. If your working and dont like the fact that your employer doesnt offer you a retirement plan then do me a favor quit your job. Maybe this country needs to go to the draft. If you dont like my remarks tough sh t.

It's not to say that all illegal aliens are non-workers or of a criminal element. I don't know who's legal and who's not. I have a friend who works for employers of Mexican labor. She tells me that she can clearly pick up on the fact that documentation is false, but the employers are the ones doing the employing and they're perfectly fine with it.

That mentality and practice is patently unfair to the thousands - perhaps millions - of people from other countries who wait patiently, sometimes for years on end, to gain LEGAL entry into this country. Personally, I find our immigration laws too strident and tilted toward one nationality. But, until the laws are changed, it's the law of the land, and it should be enforced.

Economic Costs of illegal aliens.

1. $11-$22 billion spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.

2. $2.2 billion yearly spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.

3. $2.5 billion yearly spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.

Millions of U.S. dollars sent outside the country. Population health risks due to unverified pre-entry immunizations. Increase in road traffic and usage, injurious or fatal accidents. Growing number of uninsured illegal aliens who can't pay for claims. Overcrowding and financial burdens on public schools. Continued law-breaking rationalization for those who employ illegals. Difficult prosecution and justice when perpetrators flee the country.

And, then, there is the crime factor. Not a fun read, but eye opening

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impac...e_summary.html

"While the vast majority of illegal aliens are decent people who work hard and are only trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, (something you or I would probably do if we were in their place), it is also a fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators," states Peter Wagner, author of a new report called "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration." -
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impac...e_summary.html "That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we allow the 'good' in we get the 'bad' along with them. The question is, how much 'bad' is acceptable and at what price?"

She was being sarcastic. Read her long post

You know how I get when it comes to the military.

philcski - will you please stop "spinning". I originally responded on this issue to a poster who said, "Cut the defense budget by 50%". That's what's absurd. We frankly don't know how big China's or Iran's military arsenal is. We've already learned that all it takes is about a dozen nut cases and 3 highjacked airliners to take out several thousand people in the matter of a couple of hours. Military spending goes beyond weaponry and manpower. There's state of the art intelligence and keeping up with techology and highly technical people to manage such. That does not necessarily mean we have to increase the budget to increase the size. If those fat butt bureaucrats would just stay the heck out of the way of the military professionals and let them do their job and stop throwing monkey wrenches into the process passing ridiculous rules and regulations about where, how, and why desperately needed items are bought, the military would work more efficiently and do their job better.

And, the private sector and corporations have and continue to send money to Israel. I wonder how long that will be allowed. Talk about hate! Obama has shown nothing but disdain for Israel.

How much will my taxes be increased? I know that VAT is on the table, but I really can't imagine what else BO has on his taxation agenda. I continue to be astounded by his actions on a daily basis.

"I will not raise your taxes."

No, maybe he won't, but he'll find a dozen or more way to institute new taxes.

As long as you're so big at asking questions, let me ask you a question. How's that hopey changey BO thing working out for you?

LOL. I thought it was an insane post too until I figured out it was sarcasm.

Precisely. The military's might served no purpose in 9/11, and that is no knock against it, because with all the best intelligence in the world we could not have known that was the time. There was nothing they could do. I should have died that day, believe me I'm all for national security against terrorism. We are fighting a different war now, an information war. Sourcing and sorting credible leads doesn't take guns and tanks, it takes information technology and code cracking geniuses.

We are not at war with China- and probably never will be in my or your lifetime. We are not at war with Iran. We do not need to expand the military financially or structurally. Another Packard Commission type approach is much needed, but how much do you think they will find? I sincerely hope there's not $400 hammers and $600 toilet seats out there again, and doubt it. Overspending is hidden in Raytheon's balance sheet and would be very tough to root out.

The effective tax rate has fluctuated under 3% in the 30 years since 1980 for everyone but those in the top 10%. We are in no different situation tax-wise as individuals as we have been since Carter.

Your taxes won't go up a dime 2011- in fact they probably will go down. Obama's tax plan affects those making over $250k and corporations which had cuts under the Bush administration.

I don't care about some hokey campaign slogan. Quite frankly, his "programs" outside of healthcare reform are pretty industry standard.

China would be toast in a matter of days.

Jesus, people.

Technology and keeping up with it costs a LOT of money. It's probably more expensive than weaponry.

Don't ever think for a minute that China and/or Iran won't go to war with us or practice some form of terrorism.

I already said that Obama will probably hold true to his promise of not raising taxes, but new taxes will be imposed. How do you explain VAT being proposed. That's not in place of any current tax. It's a NEW tax.

I don't have much hope for the future of this country if it stays on its current socialistic, big government, tax, tax, tax, screw the military agenda. But, it's not my future any longer. Hopefully, the changes won't affect me given my "old" age. But, I'm happy to hear that you are comfortable with the way things are going. I hope you continue on the path to success, financial stability, and well-being.

After reading a few of the ...oratories here,I harken back to a documentery I saw on my-tubey sometime ago about insane asylums.

Small wonder.




Anyways---- won't forget the inmate who was heard to say.."I've been here 7 years.The pills don't work anymore.I hate this place."


He was probably the sanest person in that building at that point in time...funny,too,without meaning to be.

There is a 0% chance China would ever attack us. NONE. We account for approximately 20-25% of their GDP in terms of direct investments and exports. It would be a social and economic debacle of historic proportions.

Weaponry hasn't changed much in 40 years since Vietnam. The M16A1 rifle still remains the stock over the shoulder choice, why do we continue to buy new ones? The Browning .50 Caliber has been the heavy machine gun of choice since WWII and still in use with very little improvements, why do we need to buy new ones? The M48 Patton has been the tank of choice for years, and still works just fine, why spend money developing new ones? How about spending that money on retraining foot soldiers as antiterrorism information agents? Computers cost $500 apiece these days. Developing information databases and spy software isn't expensive in relative terms. If our military costs were cut in half we'd still have far and away the best and most powerful armed forces in the world by an exponential amount.

There is nothing socialistic about this country. 10% of the country still controls 80% of the wealth, which is as anti-socialistic ideals as you can get.

The biggest government program by all measures is the military. So how can you say we have "big government" and the military "is getting screwed" at the same time?!? How can we spend more money without raising taxes? Where does it get saved or redistributed?

VAT has no chance of getting passed in the next 5-10 years. It's a buzzword to get people riled up.

You keep dreaming, philcski. Maybe someday you'll wake up and smell the coffee.

I'm done on this topic. Said all I have to say. To say anything more would be in defense of what I've said already, and I'm not into defending my opinions.

I've got some bigger things in my personal life that I have to attend to. I've been a member of this forum for nearly 4 years. I hardly ever post to it because frankly - 3/4's of the time I don't know what the heck people are talking about. It seems like a secret society, at times. And, analyzing all that's been said here, the same thing applies. I don't understand what a lot of people are saying, and they accuse me of the same.

The difference is - I couldn't care less. Right is RIGHT.

I shall drag my knuckles back to my cave and leave y'all with smart azz remarks to say in response. Some of you need the last word. I do not.

:tro::tro:

We're going to be invaded by fish!

What am I dreaming about? What do I need to "wake up and smell the coffee" on?

Picture FROM TODAY!
Looks like China is ready to push the button :rolleyes:

I am not accusing you of anything other than having misguided information, nor am I trying to get in a "last word". A lot of the stuff you have said just simply isn't true and I've given you the facts to dispute them, but you don't seem to care. You said you're an "informed voter" but then when presented with the facts you don't seem to digest them. It goes right back to what you want to believe.

Right is RIGHT alright- the extreme Right doesn't seem to listen or care to anyone else, even when presented with factual information that conflict their beliefs, just like the extreme Left.

It looks like Obama is getting on his knees.

Well,Philski, I hope you're right about the VAT not being passed. As far as America being socialist...it's not now but it's moving that way with the redistribution of wealth projects that Obama has going.
Oh, about China.....they don't have to attack us militarily...they just have to call in all our debt to them, and it's over.
About the healthcare reform and it's cost to us...if they indeed do start to count our insurance as wages or income, there will be no wiggle room at all for most people economically.