Derby Trail Forums
Page 6 of 8 « First < 45 6 78 >
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Derby Trail Forums (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/index.php)
-   The Paddock (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Black Caviar at Royal Ascot Saturday AM (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47244)

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 871534)
Very doubtful. He was 0-for-3 lifetime in Graded Stakes races and got caught at Los Al in his California debut.

Maybe the fastest horse for a quarter mile or half mile of all-time -- but he does not belong in the discussion of all-time top dirt sprinters IMO.
You speak in ignorance with this one. The graded stakes race thing is meaningless. Racing was different back then (the way stakes were structured) and quite a few of those listed stakes are now graded. It's too bad you've never seen video of him run.

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 871538)
He was clearly in the class of Groovy and Phone Trick.
Especially as a four year old.

Anyone who ever saw that horse run when he was older knew they were watching greatness.

I'd like to have seen Ack Ack run. Were you ever so lucky to see him race?

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calzone Lord (Post 871540)
Gary Stevens was the worst at that. He had a new 'best horse I ever rode' every season.

Kent Desormeaux is pretty close as well. He was on a lot of good horses including Formal Gold in his prime -- and after the Preakness he called Big Brown the best he ever rode.

Mike Smith called Zenyatta the best he ever rode -- and that included Skip Away, Cigar, and Holy Bull among others.

Can anyone imagine Affirmed getting beat by 7 or more lengths at Long Acres on 3 different occasions? Or how about Affirmed getting caught late at Los Alimotis. Or, how about Affirmed finishing 5th at Turf Paradise.

I don't fault anyone for thinking Chinook Pass was one of the fastest horses ever for a half mile or so and he was definitely a great performer on a few occasions -- but he was a runoff and had a lot of bad races on his form.

I have no idea who the greatest sprinter ever was. Dr. Fager was pretty amazing sprinting. There are a lot of great sprinters throughout history starting with Roseben and ending with horses like Kona Gold and Midnight Lute.
Pincay was not a braggart. If he said something, he meant it. I never saw or heard him get into hype.

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by v j stauffer (Post 871541)
Hey. Here's something that might be fun. The interview I did with Pincay was in 2003 for a radio piece I did for his 50th birthday.

In that conversation he spoke of the 4 or 5 greatest horses he ever rode. Can you guess who they were? One caught me completely off guard.
I'd guess Sham would be on there. I loved Tight Spot, though I doubt he'd say he's top 5.

Chinook Pass too, I suppose. Who else?

v j stauffer 06-27-2012 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 871548)
I'd guess Sham would be on there. I loved Tight Spot, though I doubt he'd say he's top 5.

Chinook Pass too, I suppose. Who else?
We have a first ballot winner:tro: The one that floored me was Sham. Just another testament to how great Big Red was.

Others he mentioned were Affirmed and Grienton.

Well done Charles.

Calzone Lord 06-27-2012 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 871547)
Pincay was not a braggart. If he said something, he meant it. I never saw or heard him get into hype.
Calling Chinook Pass an all-time sprinter is a greater reach than saying that Gun Bow is the single greatest race horse of all-time.

Gun Bow was a run off who could sprint 10 furlongs -- and when the track was kind to his style and he got the loose lead -- he was literally the single fastest horse in thoroughbred history that I know of. He would obliterate great fields of champion horses. True legends like Kelso and Native Diver would be completely blown off of the track and other excellent horses would be buried.

Chinook Pass an all-time great sprinter even though he got beat at Los Al, got drubbed 3 times at Long Acres, and got wasted at Turf Paradise? Ok, by that logic, Gun Bow is the best race horse to ever live.

parsixfarms 06-27-2012 08:50 AM
Not claiming that he was a "all-time great," but Kelly Kip was a very cool horse and very fast on his best day. I believe that he set either five or six track records in NY during his career; he still holds the following track records: 5F at Belmont Park (55.3 while debuting for maiden $35,000); 6F at Aqueduct (1:07.2, breaking his prior mark of 1:07.3); and 6F at Finger Lakes (1:08.1).

Antitrust32 06-27-2012 09:05 AM
not the best ever.. but some of those races Artax ran were wicked fast.

unbridled's song won the 7 furlong Olympic handicap at age 4 - 1:21 and change... his only stakes race for trainer Nick Zito. That one race put him to the top of the list of the best horses Zito has trained.

Gate Dancer 06-27-2012 09:11 AM
I'll throw an old-timer out there who was pretty quick in his day.......Bold Ego. I believe he and Top Avenger still hold the record for the fastest Derby quarter and half mile splits. Would have been interesting to see if he had just been kept sprinting how good he could have been.

cmorioles 06-27-2012 09:15 AM
Gulch was a monster sprinter, just didn't do it very often.

Revidere 06-27-2012 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 871526)
Who was better?
Pine Tree Lane?

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revidere (Post 871580)
Pine Tree Lane?
Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.

blackthroatedwind 06-27-2012 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 871584)
Did you mean Very Subtle?

I don't remember PTL ever facing Groovy and beating him.
She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.

RolloTomasi 06-27-2012 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 871544)
Phone Trick, as Salami will no doubt say I am going to say. PT lost because of the instructions Mandella gave Pincay and he's blamed himself ever since.
Jorge Velasquez rode Phone Trick in NY.

Quote:
Groovy, on a loose lead, was damn tough, but he was not the most consistent or gamest horse ever.
Groovy won 10 of 15 starts when he began sprinting in earnest. One of those defeats was in the Jerome going 8f. He beat the older Phone Trick as a 3yo before he was well-established.

Quote:
On the Line, once Lukas figured him out, was awesome.
On The Line was running in route races all the way to the end of his career. For good reason, he did well in many of them.

Quote:
Lit De Justice ran races that could take your breath away.
That horse could barely win 2 races in a row. Great turn of foot when he actually used it.

OldDog 06-27-2012 10:41 AM
Another "not the best" sprinter but one whose name deserves mention is Precisionist, the fifth - and last I believe - horse to sweep the Strub Series at Santa Anita. And he wasn't limited to sprinting, either. Six furlongs in 1:08 2/5. A mile in 1:32 4/5. Ten furlongs in 2:00 1/5. Turf, dirt, slop, he ran in them all.

outofthebox 06-27-2012 11:32 AM
Groovy was a great New York based sprinter. I believe his forte back then was his second quarter. Thats where he would win his races. The way to beat Groovy was to get in front of him early, which never happened in NY. But when he came west for the 86-87 Breeders Cup races he ran into two extremely fast fillies who ran him off his feet in the first 1/4 of the race. I do realize he won the Ancient Title in his prep for the 86 BC, so he did show he can win on the west coast.
Chinook Pass was a favorite of mine. But like the mighty Lord pointed out, he was far from consistent. His best race by far was the 83 Bing Crosby at Del Mar. A friend of mine who did beyer numbers before they were published has that race as his highest rating of any sprint back in the day. I believe he gave him a 128 that day.
Phone Trick was a beast. Unfortunately he injured himself in the Groovy race and was retired.

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 871593)
Jorge Velasquez rode Phone Trick in NY.


Groovy won 10 of 15 starts when he began sprinting in earnest. One of those defeats was in the Jerome going 8f. He beat the older Phone Trick as a 3yo before he was well-established.


On The Line was running in route races all the way to the end of his career. For good reason, he did well in many of them.


That horse could barely win 2 races in a row. Great turn of foot when he actually used it.
My bad on the jockey in NY. It was like 27 years ago and my take on jockeys are that they are mostly useless.

Everyone knew Groovy was a sprinter. Maybe you meant dedicated sprinter. He beat Phone Trick because Mandella thought it best to concede the lead to Groovy. Groovy didn't fare well when hooked by a quality speed horse, or worse, if he was forced to chase a quality speed horse.

On the Line was a sprinter by the end of his career. There is no doubt about that.

And yeah, Lit de Justice was a freaking nut case. When he fired, he was just about unbeatable (provided Nak didn't give him too awful a ride/trip).

I'm not saying Groovy wasn't a great sprinter. I just feel that there are a number of sprinters, that if all were on their best that day, would beat him.

RolloTomasi 06-27-2012 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie (Post 871599)
On the Line was a sprinter by the end of his career. There is no doubt about that.
On The Line's last 3 starts before his ill-fated BC Sprint were at a mile or more.

Indian Charlie 06-27-2012 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi (Post 871602)
On The Line's last 3 starts before his ill-fated BC Sprint were at a mile or more.
True, but Lukas was a freaking idiot. On The Line was clearly a better sprinter, he just happened to be a pretty good versatile runner.

If you like, I'll post On The Line's lifetime PPs.

Revidere 06-27-2012 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 871588)
She finished ahead of him, I think, in the 1986 BC at SA.
I was being semi facetious, but I thought she was a really fast horse mare or not. If Angel had closed the rail, she would have won the 1986 Sprint.

And in 1987 she outsprinted Groovy from the gate. In fairness, Groovy broke from the rail and Very Subtle had a nice clear run from post 9.

I think if you look at Pine Tree Lane's Bold Ruler and Carter, they were pretty fast races. Unfortunately she ran down badly in the Genuine Risk and really was never the same again.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:04 AM.
Page 6 of 8 « First < 45 6 78 >
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.