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-   -   Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22393)

GBBob 05-12-2008 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
If they're doing this with no funny business attached it really makes no difference because what they're accomplishing is potentially damaging to the sport. It's a trend that will continue to escalate to the point that owners and trainers will leave the game and there will be nothing left but 20 bullies that will control 90% of the races. And this would be disastruous to a sport that is already in dire need of less tracks and larger fields.


It's nice that you guys are giving them the benefit of the doubt. But really can you blame others for being skeptical? Can someone tell me what the risk is of cheating? A six month suspension after a 4th offense that can be circumvented by letting the horses stay with the assistant? The rules are so weak that they actually encourage foul play.

And even if they get caught they face practically no risk of being charged criminally for their actions.

In a game that involves BILLIONS of dollars there sure isn't enough severe penalties in force to curb cheating. In today's society why would people be naive enough to believe that isn't going on in horse racing? When you have numbers this high, it should be a wake up call to everyone.

You won't see track management step up security unless the public demands it. It'll be a cold day in hell when they would be proactive because that would burn too many bridges in an industry that thrives on a gang mentality.
I was going to say this earlier, but it is very hard to be "defending" Cat/Cal on any level. They aren't easy to stomach whether you are a bettor, handicapper, trainer or owner. But the only smoking gun we have here is that they have started the first 7 racing days with a crazy win % that I really think has some logical reasons behind it. If that is "sticking my head in the sand", then so be it, although I think that accusation is flat wrong. No one has come out and said they aren't cheating and I doubt anyone disagrees with your points on cheating and how it should be handled. But if a career .200 hitter hits .500 for April and jacks 12 homers, I'm going to be waiting for a little more of the season to play out before insisting he's on steroids. And Cat/Cal aren't .200 hitters.

Coach Pants 05-12-2008 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
You beat Illinois as an owner in the high level races, this group doesn't usually go above 25k
Excluding Churchill and Keeneland it's far more bleak here. We'll have 16k allowance races at Ellis this summer.

We'll have Ralph Martinez hitting at a 50% clip with $2500 Fairmount claimers.

Coach Pants 05-12-2008 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
I was going to say this earlier, but it is very hard to be "defending" Cat/Cal on any level. They aren't easy to stomach whether you are a bettor, handicapper, trainer or owner. But the only smoking gun we have here is that they have started the first 7 racing days with a crazy win % that I really think has some logical reasons behind it. If that is "sticking my head in the sand", then so be it, although I think that accusation is flat wrong. No one has come out and said they aren't cheating and I doubt anyone disagrees with your points on cheating and how it should be handled. But if a career .200 hitter hits .500 for April and jacks 12 homers, I'm going to be waiting for a little more of the season to play out before insisting he's on steroids. And Cat/Cal aren't .200 hitters.
It's very rare to have a streak like the one they're having. I don't think in my 15+ years of gambling on this sport that I can recall where an owner/trainer has won at this strong of a clip over a two week span.

It very well could be that all they've done is drop horses in class and had some extreme racing luck. Even so, it's far from sporting and it's borderline confrontational to other owners and trainers. It's like they're flaunting their success and wealth at everyone. And really it makes me wish bad things would happen to them.

Scav 05-12-2008 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
Excluding Churchill and Keeneland it's far more bleak here. We'll have 16k allowance races at Ellis this summer.

We'll have Ralph Martinez hitting at a 50% clip with $2500 Fairmount claimers.
By group I meant 25k claimers. They don't have many allowance horses except DOA and Lewis Michael, both homebreds, and they don't buy many at the sales, if any now that I think about it. I actually think you will see Frank chill out soon and focus on breeding, especially if he holds onto DOA/DOL...He has a decent broodmare band producing, he should have never sold DOA's mom....

Coach Pants 05-12-2008 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
By group I meant 25k claimers. They don't have many allowance horses except DOA and Lewis Michael, both homebreds, and they don't buy many at the sales, if any now that I think about it. I actually think you will see Frank chill out soon and focus on breeding, especially if he holds onto DOA/DOL...He has a decent broodmare band producing, he should have never sold DOA's mom....
Yeah he's got probably 50 mil plus in the bank and sold her for 600k. DOH

Scav 05-12-2008 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
Yeah he's got probably 50 mil plus in the bank and sold her for 600k. DOH
I don't think they knew what they had in DOA, I think she sprung up on them a little.

No idea what she went for, but it was right when Kitten's Joy was winning all those races....

GBBob 05-12-2008 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
Yeah he's got probably 50 mil plus in the bank and sold her for 600k. DOH
As an aside, I don't care how deep my pockets were, it would drive me crazy to do what they do with claimers. I've been at AP 6 of the 7 racing days this year and have watched Calabrese every time heading for the picture. I don't think he could name half the horses he was standing next to. They are just a commodity to him
EDIT: As I'm sure they are a commodity to many other outfits...that was a melodramatic piece of drivel on my part

hoovesupsideyourhead 05-12-2008 04:33 PM
rene got off that gravy train last year....bet hed like those mounts back.......frank has the cash to play around in the claiming game in the highest level..yet his bread and butter is lower class claiming..why is that..turn em and burn um . get one for 25 drop em win and betem too....over and over.......you dont see him banging out 100k ocs

Scav 05-12-2008 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead
rene got off that gravy train last year....bet hed like those mounts back.......frank has the cash to play around in the claiming game in the highest level..yet his bread and butter is lower class claiming..why is that..turn em and burn um . get one for 25 drop em win and betem too....over and over.......you dont see him banging out 100k ocs
Rene is back now once they get Fires his wins....They are going to use Meier's kid also....

Coach Pants 05-12-2008 04:36 PM
He seems like a pretty sharp guy. Probably knows his limits and is satisfied with what they're doing and doesn't want to risk screwing it up. Hell if he's gambling on his horses you'd figure he'd want to play some games with them to get the odds halfway decent though.

Scav 05-12-2008 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
He seems like a pretty sharp guy. Probably knows his limits and is satisfied with what they're doing and doesn't want to risk screwing it up. Hell if he's gambling on his horses you'd figure he'd want to play some games with them to get the odds halfway decent though.
Coach, you don't understand the ego on this guy. he walks around Arlington like he owns the place, stands in the corner of the paddock to the tunnel and looks at all the jocks to find out information, knowing that they will do anything to get on his horses....

Coach Pants 05-12-2008 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
Coach, you don't understand the ego on this guy. he walks around Arlington like he owns the place, stands in the corner of the paddock to the tunnel and looks at all the jocks to find out information, knowing that they will do anything to get on his horses....
What's it like when he goes to the windows? Does he have a group of stragglers trying to find out what he's betting?

hoovesupsideyourhead 05-12-2008 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
Rene is back now once they get Fires his wins....They are going to use Meier's kid also....
i saw they gave em a monkey win ...

GBBob 05-12-2008 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
What's it like when he goes to the windows? Does he have a group of stragglers trying to find out what he's betting?
you need to meet Nick the Kid to understand the situation..

and there is much, much more to Calabrese than meets the eye

Scav 05-12-2008 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Pants
What's it like when he goes to the windows? Does he have a group of stragglers trying to find out what he's betting?
Yes, I accidently got behind him the other day and their was about 15 people within 5 feet trying to get a sniff of what he is playing...I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he sweeps cards at AP on a regular basis.....

I'll never forget, last year I am chillin in the paddock, Hobby has two horses in the race, horses are gone and he comes up to Calabrese and shooting the ****, about 8mtp. I hear Hobby go, "The public is nuts for betting my one horse, and the other horse is 10/1 and is better". Calabrese goes right to the windows (There are windows within 10 feet in the paddock, one live teller and 3 machines)

I go up to the window and put 200wp and $100 exacta box with Bird Charm, Hobby's horse and another. Hobby's 3/1 ran last, while his 10/1 ran 2nd with Bird Charm winning, for a $100 exacta and I think a $10 place price.

hoovesupsideyourhead 05-12-2008 04:45 PM
[quote=GBBob]you need to meet Nick the Kid to understand the situation..
OH MY GOD!!!!

Scav 05-12-2008 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBBob
you need to meet Nick the Kid to understand the situation..

and there is much, much more to Calabrese than meets the eye
Nick the Kid has been allowed back into Arlington now, I saw him in the Gold Room and wandering around the paddock rocking the cowboy hat and tie.

He is also a DT member :)

Cannon Shell 05-12-2008 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
By group I meant 25k claimers. They don't have many allowance horses except DOA and Lewis Michael, both homebreds, and they don't buy many at the sales, if any now that I think about it. I actually think you will see Frank chill out soon and focus on breeding, especially if he holds onto DOA/DOL...He has a decent broodmare band producing, he should have never sold DOA's mom....
Isnt he like 100 years old?

Scav 05-12-2008 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Isnt he like 100 years old?
I have no idea, my guess would be late 60's early 70's

GBBob 05-12-2008 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scav
Nick the Kid has been allowed back into Arlington now, I saw him in the Gold Room and wandering around the paddock rocking the cowboy hat and tie.

He is also a DT member :)
whatever...the whole thing is bizarre


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