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-   -   Bailey vs. Azeri (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16813)

miraja2 09-21-2007 08:38 AM

To me the key to the '04 TC has always been that on a dry surface going 12f, Smarty Jones was simply not that much better than Birdstone....if he was even better at all under those particular conditions.
Clearly Smarty was the superior animal overall. Smarty was, I believe, vastly superior to Birdstone at any distance up to and including 10f. He was also vastly superior to Birdstone on an off track. But at 12f on a dry track, he was NOT vastly superior.
Therfore, when Smarty was faced with an unfavorable pace and position scenario like he was that day, he couldn't defeat Birdstone.
When people that say that JB "cost Smarty the TC" with his ride on Eddington that day, I think they are really simplifying what happened to the point of absurdity.

The Indomitable DrugS 09-21-2007 09:15 AM

I think the pre-mature inside bid by Rock Hard Ten had a lot more to do with Smarty Jones coming off the bridle in the stretch - than the fact that Bailey used up Eddington a little bit real early in order to try and keep Smarty Jones honest.

Had Rock Hard Ten been ridden competently - SJ wins the race.

I was very skeptical a son of Elusive Quality out of a Smile mare would be effective at 12 furlongs going into that race - however, he had every right to spit the bit late the way that race was run.

King Glorious 09-21-2007 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
That's definitely debateable. I agree that Touch Gold had an awful trip in the Preakness, and while he was probably best in that race that day, I don't know if for sure you can say he would have won. I think what Silver Charm went on to do after the Triple Crown showed he was the superior horse.

If Touch Gold had been able to stay healthy, I'm not sure that Silver Charm would have shown he was superior. The end result is clearly that SC accomplished more. But when both horses were at their best, I'd take Touch Gold over him every time.

blackthroatedwind 09-21-2007 09:55 AM

I completely agree with King Glorious....when both horses were at their best Touch Gold was a superior horse to Silver Charm. However, Silver Charm accomplished more as Touch Gold was sound for about 12 minutes. But, he was some racehorse during those 12 minutes.

Hell, he acted as his own rabbit in the Belmont, and still won.

blackthroatedwind 09-21-2007 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I remember Touch Gold's Preakness, Belmont and Haskell. What other races am I missing? He was very nice, but in your opinion was he the best of that crop?


Yes, I think he was the best horse from that crop. In fact, I think when he was sound he was one of the better horses since then. I think a healthy Touch Gold was better than Bernardini, Invasor, Saint Liam and this year's entire 3YO crop. The only horse in the last ten years I'm reasonably confident he couldn't beat is Ghostzapper.

The Indomitable DrugS 09-21-2007 11:05 AM

TG is from the same tail female family as the always sound Discreet Cat.

miraja2 09-21-2007 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I remember Touch Gold's Preakness, Belmont and Haskell. What other races am I missing? He was very nice, but in your opinion was he the best of that crop?

The only other race I can think of that you are missing is the Lexington. He won easily that day over Smoke Glacken. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search
Touch Gold was a good horse when on his game, but he remains one of my least favorite horses of the last ten years.

miraja2 09-21-2007 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I completely agree with King Glorious....when both horses were at their best Touch Gold was a superior horse to Silver Charm. However, Silver Charm accomplished more as Touch Gold was sound for about 12 minutes. But, he was some racehorse during those 12 minutes.

Hell, he acted as his own rabbit in the Belmont, and still won.

While it is obviuosly unusual (and impressive) to see a horse go from first, to fourth, and then back to first in a race, he did go the opening half mile in :49.1, so I don't know that I would use the term "rabbit."

parsixfarms 09-21-2007 01:28 PM

Yes, Touch Gold got good for a short period of time, but this is the same horse who was 1-for-4 in Canada as a 2YO, and only 6-for-15 lifetime. One can argue that he may have been the most "talented" horse from his generation but that is a far different thing from being the "best" which I equate with being "accomplished." I know I'm walking into a hornet's next with this question, but by that way of thinking, where do we put Discreet Cat?

parsixfarms 09-21-2007 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
We can start by putting him on the track for a change!

Discreet Cat's running in the Vosburgh as a prep for the Breeders' Cup. I can't believe that you're skeptical of his ability to make both races.

The Indomitable DrugS 09-21-2007 03:00 PM

Discreet Cat runs when he wants to run.

He's the Randy Moss of horse racing.

The Indomitable DrugS 09-21-2007 04:39 PM

You can never have enough Randy Moss's

RolloTomasi 09-21-2007 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
I completely agree with King Glorious....when both horses were at their best Touch Gold was a superior horse to Silver Charm. However, Silver Charm accomplished more as Touch Gold was sound for about 12 minutes. But, he was some racehorse during those 12 minutes.

Hell, he acted as his own rabbit in the Belmont, and still won.

I don't remember the race exactly, but wasn't Wild Rush, another Stronach runner (different trainer), on the lead that day?

blackthroatedwind 09-21-2007 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
I don't remember the race exactly, but wasn't Wild Rush, another Stronach runner (different trainer), on the lead that day?

Sort of....and I was actually joking. Touch Gold went to the lead early, in a reasonably slow pace, then dropped back a bit, and rallied to win.

I think Wild Rush was up front though I think the field was pretty compact.


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