This is a good point, the penalties need to be harsh enough to deter the cheaters.

I'm not saying that he didnt deserve credit but he was only the head asst for a short time. McLaughlin, hennig and bobby barnett also worked for DWL

probably me

Seriously. I understand that you wouldnt want to put it out on the board though if it was something sensitive.

I just find it fascinating that one barn can produce so many top trainers and it would be interesting to know what brought that barn down from the top.

I guess the obvious question on inquiry minds is why the student(s) have passed the teacher? Almost everyone that worked for him is better statistically than he is when they leave...I don't think even the most challenged handicapper would wager on a Lukas horse with supreme confidence here in the present.

It's apparently far tougher for you to recognize one when you read it.

Why are you trying to complicate things with the injection of fact or reason or even thinking about other possibilities?

The overriding theme here is that it clearly all depends upon doping horses. Doping put Pletcher's grade 1 wins up there, lack of doping took the grade 1 numbers down. A trainer's earnings drop - that's clearly lack of doping. A horse is claimed and improves 20 points? Doping. A trainer has one drug positive? A doper. A trainer has no drug positives? Still a doper, testing just can't catch him.

Simple. Simple beyond belief.

I believe it was last Tuesday, during Allday's normal time period? Steve would know.

i say constant harping because it seems that todd gets a lot more criticism than many other trainers.
it just seems lately, not so much here but in the press, that not a peep is said about asmussen and his history--it just seems to be more criticism per event towards some trainers than others. and it's not as tho SA has been clean lately-he's facing a hearing soon, yet is in the running for an award next month-which i feel is shameful.

Pletcher was guilty, it was a positive under the rules then, I wouldn't have voted to give him a complete pass.

However - when I compare Pletcher's positive for a whiff of mepivicaine (and the procaine), to Biancone's, "I didn't know the cobra venom was in my barn" and Rod Stewart's, "My wife emptied the fridge and I didn't know either" - then add in Biancone's past (international) history, and Pletcher's past history - well, Pletcher isn't the one I'm going to turn up my nose in disgust at.

I think that TAP takes more grief on discussion boards such as this because of the media's portrayal of him as racing's "golden boy," while the Asmussens and Dutrows of the game are never portrayed in that light. I think what you are reading here is that, for a variety of reasons (often different from person to person), several individuals don't think that TAP's "golden boy" image is deserved.

It was a tough time for Wayne personally ( he has had 5 wives), klein leaving the business hurt alot, his assistants that left took clients with them and the game itself started to adapt to changes that he himself brought about. When he hit the scene virtually none of the big trainers were a national presense. Everyone was regional and even the top trainers had way fewer horses under their care than now. He made it acceptable for assistants to train owners good horses because essentially that is who is doing the actual training in outfits with multiple divisions. The time that I worked there we simply didnt have many really good horses.

Lukas lost a lot of good clients along with the assistants that left. He was also a lot more aggressive about running horses (and still is) than the younger guys who are more aware of their win percentage. I never heard Allen Jerkens or Wayne lukas say a word about win % when i worked for them. They never saw it to have any importance which it really doesnt especially to the degree that it is used as a measuring stick. win % is the white elephant in the room that no one ever seems to bring up when we talk about horses making fewer and fewer starts per year.

jerry maguire?

Several people mentioned TAP losing clients. I know he's lost Melnyk and some of the Peachtree horses but are they making any difference? I mean do Melnyk and John Fort have any sensations that are, by their absence hurting Todd? Beside that, Todd has picked up others, including some in Cali for Zayat.

and of course whenever one has success, they become a target. the higher you go, the bigger the bulls-eye. the irony is that people will root on another, til they get too good. then the fun comes from tearing that same person back down.

of course losses will hurt-they add up. look at baffert. he's added owners, but in no way did they replace who he lost.
and for those who wonder why lukas ended up where he is--he started out where pletcher is right now, and continued to go down. if pletcher can't stem the tide, he'll end the same way.

He has also been hurt by Coolmores lack of spending in the american markets recently (the green Monkey aside). Maybe those guys dont have any stars but they gave him lots of quality horses that add up to wins and money on the big league circuit.

Lukas and Pletcher are far differnt guys and trainers. Outside of working for him and being a "corporate" type trainer pletcher and DWL dont have that many similarities.

Paul

My point is that its not like Melnyk and Peachtree (to use two examples) are winning races in bunches. Tehy didn't take any monsters away from TAP.

Good! I was worried there for a minute that you are as unable to comprehend the written word as the above mishmosh of weird inaccuracies and wrong assumptions indicates.

melnyk may still be in legal hot water, might explain the lack of punch in his stable right now.

So basically, what you're saying is that a guy who's had two seperate horses (that won or placed in races) with significant levels of local anesthetic in their systems during the immediate post-race period looks rosier than a guy who had an unused vial of illegal medication sitting in a refridgerator.

That's like saying you'd prefer to be driving along the freeway with a drunk driver, rather than a guy with a dimebag in his glove compartment.

The levels were not "significant". They were low.

Pletcher had a positive for mepivicaine, a Class 2 therapeutic drug (a therapeutic med that has "potential to impact performance") at such a low level that it is now legal.

And he has a positive for procaine, a Class 3 therapeutic med with "little to no ability to impact performance".

Biancone was guilty of having prohibited drugs on the racetrack grounds in his barn. It wasn't just cobra venom, it was also levodopa and carbidopa (last two drugs used to treat nerve tremors in humans with Parkinson's).

All three drugs being Class A violations (the ultimate) for simply having them on racetrack grounds; Class A drugs have "the highest potential to impact racing performance with zero therapeutic benefit to horses".

There are currently no tests whatsoever to detect these three drugs in the horse. Cobra venom is a local anesthetic that's been around for some time. It's only use at the racetrack is to try and create anesthesia that cannot be detected.

Yes. I absolutely view Pletcher's violations as far less serious than Biancone's. As a veterinarian, I don't take a violation of the racing rules, or potential horse abuse, lightly.

To use your analogy, Pletcher is driving after having a Coors Light; while Biancones glove compartment is filled with heroin and angel dust, and he's speeding down the highway in the wrong lane with his eyes closed.

To use an analogy, that is like saying "I'm a little pregnant". Either you are or you aren't.

gotta say that imho the Pletcher situation vs the Biancone situation is a little different than your analogy...
more like two students that get suspended from school for violation of no drugs on school grounds......one gets caught taking asprin for a headache....the other gets caught with an eightball of blow in his locker....


The question that remains unanswered is.....What (if anything) is/was in the locker of the kid with the headache???

That comment has to be one of the dumbest I've read.:zz:

WHY do you think 90% of LEGAL medications have clearly specified "withdrawal intervals" before a horse can race?
Nothing in race horse drug administration is remotely akin to being pregnant...:rolleyes:

As stated, Pletcher's overage of procaine occured via an antibiotic injection and the horse cleared the allowable interval for the drug to dissipate, but in this horse, it did not.

As stated, Pletcher's horse was treated with an allowable and legal medication. There is NO part of Cobra venom that is allowable or legal for race horses...:zz:

As an aside, Baffert was acussed several years ago of using "cocaine" on a horse. His attorney, Papianio, beat the rap by proving that the amount of cocaine found in the horse was "akin to a drop of water in a swimming pool" and Baffert's horse was unintentuonally contaiminated via casual contact.

What I'd like to understand is why are CA trainers like Sadler and O'Neill repeatedly caught using steroids and/or milkshakes but get a "pass warning"and Pletcher is castigated for a LEGAL medication overage...

I'll have to think about that dumbest thing comment abit more, but in short do you seriously think the N.Y stewards would hand down a 45 day suspension if it was an coincidental incident. They could have slapped him on the wrists for sloppiness but chose the latter.

BTW How would you know the original dose wasn't a significant amount? The point is the stewards deemed something was not right and they administered the punishment. I guess they just picked out a random number ...:rolleyes:

The violation is cut and dry...horse tested and was positive for procaine in CA.

All racing venues support violations handed down by other tracks. NY supported CA's finding of "an overage of procaine" Pletcher is appealing via Papianio in CA.

IF, IF you read the article re Plertcher's violation(which obviously you didn't
because YOU are commenting when you are UNINFORMED) you WOULD know ALL horses in the BC were tested.

Pletcher's horse got AN antibiotic for an infection. Procaine was USED with an intramuscalur antibiotic injection. Pletcher's horse tested positive for a minute amount...verified as being injected into the horse with the antibiotic 18 days prior.

The interval for clearance of procaine is 15 days. Pletcher's horse still had procaine in it's system AFTER the specified dissipation interval.
Hence, the CA violation supported by NY( and ALL) until an appeal.

He's held to his own standard because he's the poster boy for racing. If he walked through a crowd at Saratoga 90% of racing fans would know who he is. Gary Sherlock has won just as many G1's this year as Todd but no one would know who he is. It'd be like a revelation that Tiger Woods uses steroids or illegal golf balls.

You know that Assman is universally reviled on this board and pretty much everywhere else.

Who's talking about procaine...I was reffering to his horse's testing positive for mepivacaine in a race he won at Saratoga in 2004, an anesthetic that has "a high potential to affect performance." Follow the bouncing ball please...

Good analogy, if Tiger Woods didn't win a major all year but won a bunch of lesser tournaments, people would ask the same thing what is wrong with the guy?

Drugs can be measured to accuracy in very minute amounts.

For example, in NY, caffeine is prohibited at over 100 nanograms per millilter. Do you view the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 101 ng/ml the same as the trainer who is "positive for caffeine" at 660 ng/ml?

Steve posted a connection to Pletchers mepivicaine case hearing and legal defense here, and the dose found in the horse was published (in fact, it was the basis of his entire defense).

Go to http://rulings.racing.state.ny.us/frm_Rulings.aspx and you can search and read all NYRC rulings regarding drug violations. You can google the Pletcher mepivicaine thing.

Yeah, but would they automatically attribute it to, "Well, he musta stopped taking the steroids that were giving him his power and distance" ??

Woods isn't John Daley.

This brings up an important point.

If Woods married John Daley, would you have the name John Wood or Daley Wood?

I think most guys would be worrying about where Tiger's wife went.