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-   -   LOL -- A warning from Napolitano (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40757)

Danzig 02-06-2011 02:18 PM
3 with pros and cons? shocking. you'd think it would be all cons seeing as how it's a bunch of lawbreakers.:rolleyes:

Antitrust32 02-07-2011 08:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 749170)
Then I guess, according to your way of thinking, we should just open up the borders and let anyone just march in as they damn well please.

http://www.illegalimmigrationstatistics.org/
what a stupid post

Antitrust32 02-07-2011 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 749395)
teach a US registered potential human broodmare with a less than valuable pedigree to become a equine hot-walker/groom instead or tax her and then look at the savings. Multiply that by all illegal jobs and we're talking big!
another pretty damn stupid post

dellinger63 02-07-2011 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 749822)
another pretty damn stupid post
Sorry ugly problems don't have pretty solutions.

With the social acceptence of single mother/teen pregnancy and the government providing lifetime support including healthcare, I'm afraid 'welfare mom' has become an acceptable vocation for young girls when it was originally intended as a safeguard for assisting a woman in need.

Antitrust32 02-07-2011 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 749828)
Sorry ugly problems don't have pretty solutions.

With the social acceptence of single mother/teen pregnancy and the government providing lifetime support including healthcare, I'm afraid 'welfare mom' has become an acceptable vocation for young girls when it was originally intended as a safeguard for assisting a woman in need.
that boils down to bad parenting.

People should have to pass multiple tests before they should be allowed to become parents.

Princess Doreen 02-07-2011 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 749820)
what a stupid post
Just looking to stimulate the conversation and give you your usual opportunity to toss out an insult.:)

Antitrust32 02-07-2011 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 749853)
Just looking to stimulate the conversation and give you your usual opportunity to toss out an insult.:)
its all good... I only insult when people make incredibly stupid posts..

but at least you are looking to stimulate something

dellinger63 02-07-2011 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 749844)
that boils down to bad parenting.

People should have to pass multiple tests before they should be allowed to become parents.
When enough people view the Morey Show etc. as entertainment rather than an insult, in many cases a racist insult, in order to keep it on the air, I'd argue society as a whole has a problem.

Instead of dealing with bad parenting we turn our heads and throw money at more teachers, police and ultimately jail guards to compensate for the bad parents’ actions and the subsequent results. But then again faulting a 15-16 yr old for bad parenting is akin to a 2-3 year old sticking their hand in a flame. It's a catch-22. Both get burned but the injury to the new mother is far worse. Perhaps going after the sire's parent(s) as well, provided he was underage, for support and to recoup or limit the government's role as primary supporter would be a detriment?

Riot 02-07-2011 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig (Post 749513)
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/doe...ion-cost-jobs/


Summary
Do immigrants take American jobs? It’s a common refrain among those who want to tighten limits on legal immigration and deny a "path to citizenship" — which they call "amnesty" — to the millions of immigrants living in the U.S. illegally. There’s even a new Reclaim American Jobs Caucus in the House, with at least 41 members.

But most economists and other experts say there’s little to support the claim. Study after study has shown that immigrants grow the economy, expanding demand for goods and services that the foreign-born workers and their families consume, and thereby creating jobs. There is even broad agreement among economists that while immigrants may push down wages for some, the overall effect is to increase average wages for American-born workers.

also:

But whether they’re legal, as in the CFAW ad, or illegal, as in our two other examples, really doesn’t matter for the purpose of answering our question: The truth is that immigrants don’t "take American jobs," according to most economists and others who have studied the issue.

Immigrant workers "create almost as many" jobs as they occupy, "and maybe more," said Madeleine Sumption, policy analyst at the nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute, which is funded by a range of foundations, corporations and international organizations. "They often create the jobs they work in." In addition, "they buy things, and they make the economy bigger," she told us. As she and a co-author wrote in a report last year for a group created by the British government:

Somerville and Sumption: [T]he impact of immigration [on a nation's economy] remains small, for several reasons. Immigrants are not competitive in many types of jobs, and hence are not direct substitutes for natives. Local employers increase demand for low-skilled labor in areas that receive low-skilled immigrant inflows. Immigrants contribute to demand for goods and services that they consume, in turn increasing the demand for labor. And immigrants contribute to labor market efficiency and long-term economic growth.
Don't let Dell read this. His head might explode.

Riot 02-07-2011 08:43 PM
More illegal immigrant news for Dell
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090202673.html

Selected excerpts:
Quote:
How illegal immigrants are helping Social Security

In response to a research inquiry for a book I am writing on the economics of immigration, Stephen C. Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration and someone who enjoys bipartisan support for his straightforwardness, said that by 2007, the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.

That represented an astounding 5.4 percent to 10.7 percent of the trust fund's total assets of $2.24 trillion that year. The cumulative contribution is surely higher now. Unauthorized immigrants paid a net contribution of $12 billion in 2007 alone, Goss said.

"If for example we had not had other-than-legal immigrants in the country over the past," Goss e-mailed me, "then these numbers suggest that we would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover [payouts] starting [in] 2009, or six years earlier than estimated under the 2010 Trustees Report."

The Social Security actuaries estimate that two-thirds of unauthorized immigrant workers, or 5.6 million people, were paying into the system in 2007. Roughly half used a Social Security number tied to an invented name or one that belonged to someone else. Of the rest, many got legal cards when they entered the country under a temporary work visa. They stayed illegally after their visas expired.

About 180,000 unauthorized immigrants received about $1 billion in fraudulent benefits in 2007, Goss said. These benefits are subtracted from the net contribution. Few of the unauthorized workers are likely to receive anything, ever. About the only way they might would be if they were to become legal, and they had paid their withholding taxes using their true names.

The decline in illegal immigration, plus tighter workplace enforcement, means that contributions from the unauthorized will decrease. But as Goss notes, they remain, because of larger families, a positive contributing factor to Social Security solvency.

Somebody ought to say thank you.

dellinger63 02-08-2011 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot (Post 750110)
Mr. Goss’s information is very informative if correct. Let’s take a look behind some of his numbers:

“In response to a research inquiry for a book I am writing on the economics of immigration, Stephen C. Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration and someone who enjoys bipartisan support for his straightforwardness, said that by 2007, the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.

That represented an astounding 5.4 percent to 10.7 percent of the trust fund's total assets of $2.24 trillion that year. The cumulative contribution is surely higher now. Unauthorized immigrants paid a net contribution of $12 billion in 2007 alone, Goss said.”

He went on with

”About 180,000 unauthorized immigrants received about $1 billion in fraudulent benefits in 2007, Goss said. These benefits are subtracted from the net contribution.”

So using Mr. Goss’s figures $13 billion were contributed to Social Security in 2007 by ‘unauthorized workers’ after adding back on the billion he subtracted for fraud. After using the 5.6 million worker number he quoted we arrive at an average contribution per worker of $2,321.00. Since the SS and Medicaid contribution is 7.65% of first 90K earned we learn that the average yearly wage for an illegal worker in 2007 was $30,539.00.

So now Mr. Goss has let the truth out. I would think there are 5.6 million American workers ready and willing to go to work today for 30K per year no matter how dirty the job. I'd also like to ask Mr. Goss the amount of children these ‘unauthorized workers’ have with them. If it averages out to anything more than a half child per worker the $2,321 contributed to SS is swallowed up in the first semester of school with a courtesy daily lunch. I'll let RIOT figure out the ER room health costs incurred and will leave out uninsured motor vehicle accidents, crime, etc etc etc.

Stephen Goss showed his bias throughout the piece using ‘unauthorized’ instead of illegal. To him someone robbing his neighbor’s house isn’t a home invader or burglar but an unauthorized visitor.

Antitrust32 02-08-2011 10:44 AM
I think you would have to base it at 12% for social security, not 6%.. Either you pay all 12% or your company matches your 6%...

so go with 12% if you are trying to figure out peoples salaries.

dellinger63 02-08-2011 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 750208)
I think you would have to base it at 12% for social security, not 6%.. Either you pay all 12% or your company matches your 6%...

so go with 12% if you are trying to figure out peoples salaries.
Going with the 12% figure the average yearly pay per worker is reduced to $19,341.

I'm not sure Goss included the employers contribution? If he did then he should have added and their employers everytime he typed 'unauthorized immigrants' or reduced their total contribution by half.

Antitrust32 02-08-2011 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 750216)
Going with the 12% figure the average yearly pay per worker is reduced to $19,341.

I'm not sure Goss included the employers contribution? If he did then he should have added and their employers everytime he typed 'unauthorized immigrants' or reduced their total contribution by half.
it has to be 12% no matter what.

If that employee isnt working, the 6% match isnt coming in. If you are self employed you have to pay 12% anyway.

Plus 19k sounds a lot more like the salary of an illegal than 30k.

Princess Doreen 02-08-2011 12:51 PM
The National Immigration Law Center says the money is directed towards the Earnings Suspense File, which is a repository for Social Security taxes which are paid by illegal immigrants who have either used false identities, forged document or incorrect Social Security numbers.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html

The U. S. government is getting the benefit of those SS payments. I doubt they're being held in any "Suspense" file. The suspense is how the U. S. government is diverting those funds to pay for something other than the SS Program - much the same as they've diverted a LOT of SS funds. If all the money paid into SS over the decades actually had stayed in a SS account, the program wouldn't be in any trouble whatsoever.

dellinger63 02-08-2011 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 750246)
it has to be 12% no matter what.

If that employee isnt working, the 6% match isnt coming in. If you are self employed you have to pay 12% anyway.

Plus 19k sounds a lot more like the salary of an illegal than 30k.
I completely agree I just think the employer should get credit for the contribution he makes and the worker what he does. An employer would pay the 6% whether it be for a legit or illegit SS#. I trust illegals who are self employed are forgoing both parts and make up part of the 1/3 Goss talks about.

Antitrust32 02-08-2011 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Doreen (Post 750256)
The National Immigration Law Center says the money is directed towards the Earnings Suspense File, which is a repository for Social Security taxes which are paid by illegal immigrants who have either used false identities, forged document or incorrect Social Security numbers.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html

The U. S. government is getting the benefit of those SS payments. I doubt they're being held in any "Suspense" file. The suspense is how the U. S. government is diverting those funds to pay for something other than the SS Program - much the same as they've diverted a LOT of SS funds. If all the money paid into SS over the decades actually had stayed in a SS account, the program wouldn't be in any trouble whatsoever.

exactly... its legal stealing

dellinger63 02-08-2011 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 (Post 750342)
exactly... its legal stealing
except for the fact the people who pay taxes with legit SS #'s are paying for everything from education to health-care for illegals and familia. Get in a MV accident with one and see who pays no matter who's at fault.

Nascar1966 02-09-2011 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dellinger63 (Post 750352)
except for the fact the people who pay taxes with legit SS #'s are paying for everything from education to health-care for illegals and familia. Get in a MV accident with one and see who pays no matter who's at fault.
The illegal wont pay for anything. The legal person will be at fault if any blame will try to be placed on the illegal they will try to sue like the parents are trying of the teenager that was shot by the border patrol scaling a fence on the border.


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