not quite sure where you're going with the above.


which is more detrimental to our ecological system, to our conservation attempts?
-hunters and fisherman, who fund most of the above, or

- ban hunting and fishing-and lose 9/10ths of the funding, and lose most of those who take the lead on protecting our habitats, fisheries, and wetlands?

unless you have a better plan--other than to compare hunters to charitable serial killers--btw, serial killing IS illegal. hunting isn't.

Legality does not equate to morally right...the analogy is accurate if you believe that hunting for sport is morally wrong (as I and others do). The burden does not fall on me to come up with another source of funding to replace killing animals, this is not a discussion about economics but about morality. You can take the position that hunting is morally Ok, but using economics to support a moral position doesn't work. If, as I believe, killing animals for sport is morally wrong, then all the money in the world doesn't change that!

it's not just economics somer. herd health, well being...

but i would love to hear a solution if you have one.

another question just occurred to me.

so, all the good a hunter does-all those good morals he exhibits by retrieving and replacing lost wetlands, replanting trees, replacing habitat, retrieving species from extinction that he didn't force to the brink--that doesn't outweigh whatever morals you feel he doesn't have because he hunts? seems to me that maybe a hunter represents a dichotomy. saving, restoring, growing, improving-he takes back a small part of the larger whole he created, doesn't he?

i've stayed out of this because I have very mixed feelings on hunting...on the one hand i understand the history and the necessity that gave rise to hunting...on the other I refuse to look at killing as a sport...
but Danzig is absolutely right about it being important to herd health...lets face it we have removed all of the big predators save one...man...and for that reason hunting becomes an actual necessity IMO...

but that doesn't excuse, in my opinion, the irresponsible and immoral hunters like the @sshole who poached a deer off my farm this fall...we have a large coyote pack to keep our herd in check...we don't need guys like that who can't read the posted and no tresspassing signs.

Again, you are saying that the ends justify the means...I disagree. First, there have to be better solutions to overpopulation than killing and secondly, you just can't get past the free will issue...if I kill a deer, that's my responsibility...if it's wrong then all the excuses ie: it's the humane thing, I donate money to conservation, someone else will do it if I don't etc etc simply doesn't cut it! Again, my point...my only point is that killing for sport is morally wrong; we can debate that, the morality of that, but you can't bring economics or for that matter other issues into the debate and stay on point. Evil cannot be justified by pointing out good that may result, I believe hunting for sport is immoral therefore evil...we can debate that but please, enough with the smoke screens!

i have no use for those who refuse to follow game laws. it puts the rest of us in a bad light. i will not hunt with and refuse to associate with anyone who doesn't follow the rules. i hope you called your game and fish!

deer in many areas are considered a nuisance. some places have even had to call in sharpshooters because deer populations have gotten so out of control. deer are incredibly adaptable animals. they can live in a very small space, and can be very, very dangerous. especially a rutting buck, who can severely injure or kill a man. birth control has been attempted, but with limited success, and at a very high price.

also, i wonder if people realize how many hungry people are fed every year by hunters who donate the meat-after they clean and dress the animal of course. i don't know, i just think if you eat meat, you really can't argue about hunting.....

Again, I don't debate herd health etc, I simply refuse to allow pro-sport hunting arguments that try and channel the debate about the morality of such hunting into other topics to go unchallenged.

well, i don't feel it's wrong, morally or otherwise to hunt. i can't discuss hunting for sport, as i don't do it and wouldn't be able to say what the motivation would be.

another good point...since there is a program here that encourages hunters to donate extra meat to the local food shelf and many of them do. I actually haven't eaten red meat since I was a kid and only eat chicken/turkey/duck on rare occasions (and then from local farms whenever possible)...and I while I never liked seafood much I gave it up entirely after working in a fish market...

I did call the game warden and we are on the list for a decoy next fall...should be fun:D

"also, i wonder if people realize how many hungry people are fed every year by hunters who donate the meat-after they clean and dress the animal of course. i don't know, i just think if you eat meat, you really can't argue about hunting"

Again...same thing! So if serial killers donated the bodies of their victims to feed the hungry, that would make what they do morally correct?

oh, i love when they set up decoys roadside and wait for some idiot to come along. it's hilarious! it only gets better when they shoot, decoy remains in the same spot, and they try again. huh! deer just standing there. lemme try agin. then they try to wiggle out by yelling entrapment. yeah, leave the legal issues to the lawyers there homer.

oh jesus somer. gimme a break. just call me jeffrey dahmer and be done with it then.

Oh I'll go one better for you...last fall a guy drove his car into a field and plowed into the decoy (around here you get first dibs on your roadkill)...

a very expensive mistake since he got a bunch of fines and had to pay for the decoy he destroyed...I guess they cost a couple grand:D

LMAO

oh man, you need to set up a recorder when they set it up this fall...what a moron.

not funny tho to hit a deer-$5k damages to a brand new mustang a few years ago. joker came out of nowhere. he had bad morals i guess, as he was jaywalking.:D

Well, I think you said that you don't hunt for sport so why would you think my argument applies to you? I'm talking about sport hunting, I've already said that I have no problem with a person who hunts for food necessary to feed his/her family.

The only animal I truly dislike is the Canadian Goose. Sport hunting, feeding your family, whatever...they must go. They ruin every field, I've seen them try to bite kids and they are just generally a major problem. Back to Canada you go. Is there another animal that has a country in its name and yet is never in that country? I don't know of one.

lol
because you keep bringing up serial killers--and i think it's a good idea to donate to charity, and you equated that to making poor hungry people into cannibals!

so, what is your idea on conservation? to give people a sense of ownership, and stewardship, or just tax the snot out of them?

This has been an interesting thread.
I've stayed out for a while, as it seems that comparing all hunters to three deranged children shooting horses reall makes all hunters bad people.
Quite the comparison.
Yes, Danzig, you are right on all counts.
Sometimes bringing truth to prejudice just ain't gonna turn that mentality around, sad to say.
Yes, I hunt and I fish.
Yes, I eat what I take. I don't shoot coyotes, foxes, bobcats...or anything else that I don't intend to prepare in my kitchen in the best way possible.
Yes, I also plant a garden.
I throw back fish if they're undersized (though the PETA folks tried to outlaw fishing in the past, as it hurt the little fish's lips)...OH MY!!
Comparing responsible hunters and fishermen (women) with three yahoos in a pickup shooting grazing horses is just a lot of manure.
On a side note, I went bowling a week ago. A lady that had been drinking far too much picked up her bowling ball, walked back to slug down another sip before she tossed it down the lane, but dropped it on one of her team mate's feet....a broken toe.
I'm tellin' ya!!!! BOWLING SHOULD BE OUTLAWED!!!!!!!!!

don't know about critters..but apparently some people don't keep cuban cigars in a humidor...

oh, but that is off topic.

you know, some folks move to the country and admire the pretty wildlife--and then the deer eat the roses and strip the azaleas clean, and the squirrels eat all the electric wiring and start a fire. oh, then call the gamekeepers!

i don't shoot anything that i'm not going to eat. PERIOD. i've been called crazy for not shooting bobcats, as they eat turkey hatchlings. but aren't they supposed to?
besides, i don't eat bobcat.
i don't shoot birds. they have crow hunting-you should have seen the look i got when i asked if people eat them. apparently they don't--so why is there a season? i didn't get a good answer to that either.

but hopefully, at least someone, or two, will read all this mess and maybe realize we don't all go around in dented pickups with a crazed look, shooting deer by the hundreds and leaving them to rot....

and that was a funny bowling story. didn't know that sport could be so lethal.

I do agree that a lot of folks like to group people together unfairly...I haven't done that. I lived a number of years in WVa and married my first wife there...I've met some of the most intelligent folks I've known in those mountains. Just because a young woman doesn't know who Moby Dick was is no reason to view her as "inferior", just because she may not be "beautiful" in the eyes of one person doesn't doom her to a life without meaning. In an attempt to be sarcastic in another thread I stated that I think it's disgusting that folks look at me questioningly when I speak of "making Godot look punctual"....

How many times you been married? You're like Liz Taylor?

No, I stop at twice....first lasted 16 years, this last one 22 years...I guess at least I can say I'm getting better.

Still going at 22 years strong. Is she a PETA nut also..Just kidding Somer.:p

my gran is from west virginia. a rather unpleasant person btw....

that's true tho-there are many types of intelligence. i read a lot, and have a brain stuffed with generally useless trivia-my husband is not a reader by any means. my children made the mistake once of informing me that i was a lot smarter then my husband. well, they quickly learned that not much sets me off quicker than an attack on my husband-only thing comparable would be an attack on one of my children. i informed them that i know things he does not, but he knows plenty i do not-and that they were doing him an injustice and selling him quite short. of course they're older now, and understand much better and appreciate him a lot.
guy i work with can't spell worth a damn-but he can fix anything and everything, and i have said more than once i enny his knowledge and i have much respect for him.

altho some might disagree, i think this was a pretty good discussion, all things considering.

you're a good person somer, rigid, but i appreciate that-i've been accused of the same thing!

you better marry again, going by your average, you're guaranteed another 20 years on the planet.

tony and i will hit 21 in march.

There are stupid people in every state. I don't think its fair to generalize....Surround yourself with the right ones and hope the other ones don't have kids.

Congrats!

thanks!! he's a great guy, i'm very lucky.

my sis works for walmart, a district mgr. they offered her a position in the home office-batesville ark. of course i live in arkansas...she turned them down. when my other sis asked her why, she said move to arkansas? i can't do that to MY kids....

hehe
she's a charmer

LOL...if I meet the right person I'd surely try again... lets see, progression theory...16, 22...that means the next may last 28 years, yeah...I'd take that!
Randall...no, she was (is) a fundamentalist christian, she doesn't like hunting but not a PETA member.

I've lived in :
NY
WVa
NJ
PA
VA
and briefly in:
DC
ILL
Del
Ohio
Out of all those, I enjoyed WVa the most! I was in most of the Southern states during my time in the Civil Rights movement and met a lot of wonderful folks...sure a lot of angry ones too but that was expected. Attempting to discredit folks because of where they live is nothing more than ignorance...good and bad exist everywhere!

And second was Jersey no doubt. Where did you live in NJ?

No, I spent over a year in NJ while at Fort Dix....Browns Mills and Boyertown (sp?)...didn't really like it but then, I really didn't like the Army so hard to be fair!

lived in md, missouri, florida, california and here. we like it here the best i guess.
but truly, home is where the heart is. i could move tomorrow, and would no doubt like where i ended up.

Danzig,
I don't shoot crows either, though there seem to be plenty around.
Heck, I even caught a sea gull once while I was blue fishing.
Released unharmed, though it tried like crazy to take off my fingers...such an ingrate!
I do hunt birds...ruffed grouse (partridge in these parts), woodcock, and pheasants. Never over my limit, and all eaten.
Wild turkey is pretty good too, especially after a maple brine and hickory smoke in the smoker.
Basically, I don't waste any of the harvest.
It's not the blood, the kill, or the pulling of the trigger that makes it important to me. That's such a small part of it, and frankly, it gives me no joy.
The truth of it is that there's something about hunting and fishing that connects me with something far bigger than me. Not many folks will understand that. Nor do I want to try to convince them.
All I ask is for tolerance.
And yes, I've been involved in chickens, pigs, lambs, veal, and most of the other meats that come so neatly wrapped in the refrigerator case in the supermarket. To be honest, we always gave the critters the best food, care, and life possible. It's as real as my stringbeans and tomatoes.
All part of the "garden" called abundance. Gosh, I love it all.
Thanks for tolerating my rant.

Well Fort Dix isn't NJ. Any military base doesn't give you a feel for the state. Plus southern Jersey is more like Maryland than NYC area. Come up from the sticks. Great place.

Oops, I missed Maryland...don't know how I did that...lived in Salisbury and Hagerstown.