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-   -   There's no stars in racing? Is that right? (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30199)

johnny pinwheel 06-13-2009 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I agree with all of this.
But I do think there is a point when all of the cynicism and negativity directed at today's top horses from many in-the-know people can be a bit too much. Now, I realize that such negative reactions are often provoked by the ridiculous statements of owners like Jackson, analysts like Tessitore, and many members of the horse racing message board community....and while I too wish those people wouldn't make some of their outrageous statements, perhaps horse racing fans would be better served recognizing the accomplishments of a horse like Curlin, rather than constantly reminding everybody that compared to Easy Goer, Curlin was a donkey.
I also realize the irony in me, of all people, criticizing negativity and cynicism. I mean I actually started the thread comparing Curlin to Easy Goer and Sunday Silence in order to demonstrate the superiority of the latter pair. But all that being said, I still think Byk might have a point here.
its not even about any of that crap. these people do that trash talk no matter what. RACING HAS SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS. the greed makes for early retirements. the number of tracks offering large stakes purses lets the good horses avoid each other to run in "walk overs". the poly tracks lead to problems of making horses unwilling to travel. instead of stars you get regional champions. then when they DO meet its meaningless because some horses have an advantage of running on their perrferred surface. its all watered down, thats why theres a "star" problem.

dalakhani 06-13-2009 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Clemente was a great player but Cabrera is a better hitter by almost every measure. In 4 or 5 years he will have surpassed Clemente in every meaningful hitting measure while having played 60% of the time RC did.
The fallacy of statistics.

Cabrera, a player that just last season was sent to triple A, being compared to Roberto Clemente (favorably, no less) is...

And now I get it.:)

Great point!

freddymo 06-13-2009 09:32 AM
[quote=dalakhani]
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo

But if a horse were to win the triple crown, he wouldnt be prepping for the travers...he would be retired and waiting for his first season at stud.
not necessarily true.. I do agree it is a real issue

philcski 06-13-2009 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Oh


My


God.
Elle Oh Elle!
:tro:

Cannon Shell 06-13-2009 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
The fallacy of statistics.

Cabrera, a player that just last season was sent to triple A, being compared to Roberto Clemente (favorably, no less) is...

And now I get it.:)

Great point!
Before you start your (usually misguided) rantings, YOU should check the numbers. Since he became a starter in 2004 he has played in 160, 158, 158,157, and 160 games. He is better than babe ruth if during that time he actually had time to play in the minors while playing virtually every game in the majors too. At least make sure you get the correct Cabrera before you post nonsense.

dalakhani 06-13-2009 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Before you start your (usually misguided) rantings, YOU should check the numbers. Since he became a starter in 2004 he has played in 160, 158, 158,157, and 160 games. He is better than babe ruth if during that time he actually had time to play in the minors while playing virtually every game in the majors too. At least make sure you get the correct Cabrera before you post nonsense.
I thought you meant melky who was mentioned earlier in the thread which is about as misguided as delonte west being a player.

carry on.

Cannon Shell 06-13-2009 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Round Pen
CHuck Chuck Chuck you need to go look up some statistics before you start making these posts. If Cabrera Plays 10 More seasons he would have to average 200 hits per year to close in on RC 3000 lifetime hits. and in 10 years that would but him at 17 or 18 years service in the big leagues.


No Doubt Cabrera is a good hitter But he strikes out way to Much in fact at his current rate in 5 years (which would make his 11th or 12th season) he will have struck out more times than RC did in 18 seasons
Actually since he is averaging 189 hits a season and has yet to hit his prime years it is hardly a stretch to think he wont surpass Clemente in total hits. You do realize that he just turned 26 and already has 1100 hits? Clemente "led" the league in GIDP's which are quite a bit worse than strikeouts.

Cannon Shell 06-13-2009 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalakhani
I thought you meant melky who was mentioned earlier in the thread which is about as misguided as delonte west being a player.

carry on.
Delonte West and Trevor Ariza and Jimmy Carter are a better hitters than melky

freddymo 06-13-2009 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell
Actually since he is averaging 189 hits a season and has yet to hit his prime years it is hardly a stretch to think he wont surpass Clemente in total hits. You do realize that he just turned 26 and already has 1100 hits? Clemente "led" the league in GIDP's which are quite a bit worse than strikeouts.
Imagine Clemente on steriods? I would suggest that comparing baseball players today to 30 years ago is a dicey proposition. I really have no fundamental issue with going home to the DR and cycling for the winter. They all were doing it so I figure it was fair for everybody. I think its pretty obvious Caberra's body has dramatically changed since his 167lbs 19 year old days in Florida.

RolloTomasi 06-13-2009 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
Like Omaha maybe? Should I really believe that Real Quiet was two inches away from being great but since he was two inches on the wrong side, now he's not?
Didn't Omaha campaign successfully in Britain as a 4yo and didn't he nearly win the prestigious 20-furlong Ascot Gold Cup as well?

Yes, he did.

RolloTomasi 06-13-2009 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years. Obviously you have some big exceptions ... 'sup Rachel Alexandra. And hey, if Favorite Trick deserves a horse of the year title over Skip Away ... Rachel Alexandra deserves a nod over Ruffian.
Uggh.

Shades of Jay Hovdey.

...'sup Mr. Krone.

Coach Pants 06-13-2009 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitas
You come up to the FLakes we will knock you out . Put you on queer street street where you belong.

The Indomitable DrugS 06-13-2009 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Uggh.

Shades of Jay Hovdey.

...'sup Mr. Krone.
Yeah - tell me all the 3-year-old fillies from the last 15 years who've had a better first half of their 3yo filly season than she has had. Perhaps Sillverbulletday .. but probably not.

And - she pretty much did it all for a trainer who losses about triple the takeout from a huge sample size.

freddymo 06-13-2009 01:42 PM
MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html[/quote]


I guess this star has done enough

RolloTomasi 06-13-2009 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS
Yeah - tell me all the 3-year-old fillies from the last 15 years who've had a better first half of their 3yo filly season than she has had. Perhaps Sillverbulletday .. but probably not.

And - she pretty much did it all for a trainer who losses about triple the takeout from a huge sample size.
Let me take that Mr. Krone comment back.

How about Ms. Read instead?

Did you catch Hovdey's article on the English Triple Crown the other day?

That line containing, "...the Derby's (rhymes with Arby's)..." was killer.

Something to aspire to anways. Peace. We out.

Indian Charlie 06-13-2009 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
I guess this star has done enough
That star really was never that good to begin with.

KirisClown 06-14-2009 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie
That star really was never that good to begin with.
Her races are just as exciting as those of Heavenly Prize and Lakeway..

Music Note backed up like a true racing star though... HP couldn't have done that..

freddymo 06-14-2009 08:19 AM
I guess the new stars of racing are the Broohlyn and California winners. To ex 20 and 25k claimers. Maybe Mullins can re juice Chocktaw Nation?

The Indomitable DrugS 06-14-2009 08:31 AM
The biggest star in racing right now is trainer Doug Shanyfelt.

His once failed and highly embarassing training career has transformed into an all out Juggernaut.

letswastemoney 06-14-2009 08:40 AM
Rachel Alexandra is a star...not every horse gets to be on the cover of a fashion magazine....

Mine That Bird can be a lasting star

beyond that, the casual fans won't recognize any other horse.

blackthroatedwind 06-14-2009 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
Her races are just as exciting as those of Heavenly Prize and Lakeway..

Music Note backed up like a true racing star though... HP couldn't have done that..

I laughed.

KirisClown 06-14-2009 05:05 PM
After seeing the results of these stars this weekend.. is anyone else more optimistic?

freddymo 06-14-2009 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirisClown
After seeing the results of these stars this weekend.. is anyone else more optimistic?
Another big one from Mega Star Kip Keno. Steve, have you check the nominations for the Mike Lee? Maybe we , your public, can latch onto Ziptronic? I hear Ms. Rice has this one primed and dappled out..

freddymo 06-14-2009 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Horses in the headlines of DRF this morning. But there aren't any stars in the game... :rolleyes:

KIP DEVILLE: Back for the Poker..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104573.html

Also featured in Grening's report.. Benny the Bull, Driven By Success, Lime Rickey..


COMMENTATOR: Prepping for the Whitney..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104549.html


INDIAN BLESSING: Prepping for the A Gleam..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104587.html

Also featured in Anderson's report.. Obrigado (22nd stake start in last 24 outsings), Life is Sweet..


EINSTEIN: Looking for third surface Gr. I in a row..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104568.html

Also featured in the McGee piece.. International star Asiatic Boy makes his North American debut..


MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html

This group reminds me of when you are at the supermarket and you here over the Loudspeaker.."Vinny with a mop to eisle 3, Vinny"

blackthroatedwind 06-14-2009 06:47 PM
Wow! Byk put some hex on this group.

Was Einstein's third the best they could muster?

NTamm1215 06-14-2009 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Wow! Byk put some hex on this group.

Was Einstein's third the best they could muster?
Yeah...Commentator was hex-proof.

NT

Kasept 06-14-2009 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Wow! Byk put some hex on this group.

Was Einstein's third the best they could muster?
Asiatic Boy got a 2nd!

Kasept 06-14-2009 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
This group reminds me of when you are at the supermarket and you here over the Loudspeaker.."Vinny with a mop to eisle 3, Vinny"
Legitimately funny Freddy..

blackthroatedwind 06-14-2009 07:00 PM
Freddy has stepped up his game.

King Glorious 06-14-2009 07:33 PM
If these are the stars as Kasept says they are, this sport is in even worse shape than I thought.

freddymo 06-14-2009 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious
If these are the stars as Kasept says they are, this sport is in even worse shape than I thought.
Steve is a half full guy..half full of water and half full of sh.t..Either way we love him..Even if he is the Will Robinson of TB Racing.. What show was he from??? There was a Robot and a Dr. Smith and Byk's "doomed" stars I just can't think of the show.. Lost in the Fog?

dalakhani 06-14-2009 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddymo
Steve is a half full guy..half full of water and half full of sh.t..Either way we love him..Even if he is the Will Robinson of TB Racing.. What show was he from??? There was a Robot and a Dr. Smith and Byk's "doomed" stars I just can't think of the show.. Lost in the Fog?
"danger, Will Robinson"

You are surely not suggesting that our esteemed host is lost in space?

10 pnt move up 06-14-2009 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
Freddy has stepped up his game.
better performance enhancing drugs

Gander 06-15-2009 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
Horses in the headlines of DRF this morning. But there aren't any stars in the game... :rolleyes:

KIP DEVILLE: Back for the Poker..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104573.html

Also featured in Grening's report.. Benny the Bull, Driven By Success, Lime Rickey..


COMMENTATOR: Prepping for the Whitney..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104549.html


INDIAN BLESSING: Prepping for the A Gleam..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104587.html

Also featured in Anderson's report.. Obrigado (22nd stake start in last 24 outsings), Life is Sweet..


EINSTEIN: Looking for third surface Gr. I in a row..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104568.html

Also featured in the McGee piece.. International star Asiatic Boy makes his North American debut..


MUSIC NOTE: Part of the kooky 3 horse entry in the Phipps..
http://www.drf.com/news/article/104590.html
Save for Commentator who had a paid public workout, it was not a good showing for any of these horses. Einstein had a legit excuse but he probably wasnt going to win anyways. The other 3 looked absolutely abysmal.

Could Kip Deville possibly have had a better trip?

Kasept 06-15-2009 09:14 AM
I'm amused by the reactions to the loses by Indian Blessing and Kip Deville particularly. Big name horses have been caught flat-footed in return races for as long as they've run races... Those prepping for events have to return somewhere.

The showings of any of the horses that were in the headlines last week is immaterial to the topic at hand, which was there are plenty of star power name horses on the track to interest fans/players. Many under-performed over the weekend. So what? That doesn't diminish their appeal and resonance with people interested in continuity/familiarity of star runners.

slotdirt 06-15-2009 09:24 AM
I'm sorry, but are we so NY-centric around here that when someone refers to "Cabrera" - you know, Miguel Cabrera, the best hitter in baseball in the non-Albert Pujols category - folks automatically think we're talking about motherf-ing Melky Cabrera? Come on out from under the rock, people!

Gander 06-15-2009 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasept
I'm amused by the reactions to the loses by Indian Blessing and Kip Deville particularly. Big name horses have been caught flat-footed in return races for as long as they've run races... Those prepping for events have to return somewhere.

The showings of any of the horses that were in the headlines last week is immaterial to the topic at hand, which was there are plenty of star power name horses on the track to interest fans/players. Many under-performed over the weekend. So what? That doesn't diminish their appeal and resonance with people interested in continuity/familiarity of star runners.
Was that Kip Deville's prep for the BC Mile? Or is he planning on running once more before late October? What kills me is I was on the wrong horse to beat him (Oper Red Dawn) and I selected the only horse that Kip could beat.

10 pnt move up 06-15-2009 12:12 PM
If I were an Indian Blessing fan I would be nervous, she was physically tired half way around the turn chasing a mild stakes winning mare. I know the track makes a good cover but to me HP is the most dirt like, much more then SA were IB ran terrific so that seems contrived to get blasted like that because of the surface. I say its about 1 in 5 she can ever be close to the same horse again.

randallscott35 06-15-2009 12:14 PM
I think Einstein is a star...His versatility is great and he has Precious Passion like determination.

NTamm1215 06-15-2009 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up
If I were an Indian Blessing fan I would be nervous, she was physically tired half way around the turn chasing a mild stakes winning mare. I know the track makes a good cover but to me HP is the most dirt like, much more then SA were IB ran terrific so that seems contrived to get blasted like that because of the surface. I say its about 1 in 5 she can ever be close to the same horse again.
Isn't it possible that she could have needed that race? She's also never really been that good on synthetics.

NT


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