I don't know but it makes me wonder who the best filly/mare is since 1980.

Your answer:

Go for Wand. Any filly that can win a grade one at 7f in 1:21 then come back nine days later and win a grade one at 10f in 2:00 4/5........then later come back to run 9f in 1:45 4/5........as a 3yo filly.......is unique. She beat older mares twice in grade one races and IMO, was on the verge of winning the BC Distaff before going down. Even had she lost, she was going to run Bayakoa to the wire and Bayakoa was another of the really great racemares we've had since 1980.

It's impossible to know.

Princess Rooney would certainly have a strong look if you are talking about a race run at a distance of nine furlongs or further.

She ran four times in her career at nine furlongs or further - all in Grade 1 stake races - and she won each time. She was 20-17-2-1 overall in dirt races.

There are about a dozen who you could make a good case for in my opinion.

I'd probably go with Inside Information.

Drugs are an easy copout for the entire industry. Very easy for the breeders to blame as it takes the focus off of them. Easy for the fans to blame them because there is much more awareness of what is going on nowdays. But the fact is that things were not a whole lot different then and now in terms of medicating horses. What has changed is that the sales arena became the most powerful economic factor in the late 70's about the time we started breeding a whole lot more horses than we used to. The eventual bust of the market brought the numbers back to realistic numbers but the damage to the breed was done.

Drugs, legal or otherwise, have virtually nothing to do with the genetic makeup of horses. The fact that some horses may have competeted at a higher level because of them means squat in terms of producing horses. Some of the best horses of our generation like Alysheba and Coronado's Quest (neither who would be considered to be "juice" horses) got tremendous books of mares yet were absolute busts at stud.

What I do think has led to the "softness" of modern day horses is the proliferation of the blood of Mr. Prospector, Storm Cat, and Danzig. Danzig broke down after 3 starts, Storm Cat was not effective past 2 and Mr. Prospector was strictly a 6 furlong horse. Think about that for a minute and ask yourself why modern day horses who are filled with the blood of those 3 should be durable distance horses? Take a look at the upcoming Keeneland sale and see how many hips you can go without seeing one of those 3 in the pedigree? Consider that on the female side, virtually no filly's with any breeding at all, are not bred despite horrible conformation or other issues. We just correct the foals artificially with surgeries and pass them off as new.

Now days you have to take into consideration that graded stake horses are treated as assets instead of racehorses. The reason that this practice is allowed is because the power breeders don't insist on a deep race record as a requirement. As long as a horse has a good pedigree and he has knocked off a couple of big races, he is a prime stallion option. Being that the stud books are in the 100's, the farms that stand stallions don't have to be right nearly as much as the 1st few years of stud fees easily cover the price of the horse.

What it really comes down to in this day and age is like most other areas of our society. It is a numbers game and money is the greatest motivator, even over ego. I hate the way the game is played now but being I make a living at it I have to deal with it. It is hard to blame the trainers of the big horses as they are under a lot of pressure not to lose once a horse reaches a certain status. It is just too bad that a billionaire owner has yet to stand up and race and resist the urge to cash out. I guess Stronach bringing back Ghostzapper for one more year, is as close to that as we get (though he was hardly overraced)

I know we've been at this before.

Whenever I've said that synthetic surfaces are a band-aid for the real problem - the overuse of medications and the chemically gifted move-up trainers who play the game on the edge - you've always disputed this.

Take a look at the 3-year-old filly who fatally broke down in the first race ever run over the highly-touted (from a safety standpoint) Tapeta surface.



After Scott Lake claimed this filly, laid her off and did God knows what with her, she comes back and runs six consecutive races with a figure 14-to-20 lengths faster each time.

Anytime a guy claims a 2 year old off of a nice race and promptly gives in 7 months off there is obviously something amiss. Actually this is a horse who didn't have large gaps in her races sinc her layoff, often racing back on short rest and excelling.

However, I don't follow your logic on this. I never said that drugs weren't a issue in the game. But to blame legal medications like Lasix or bute for diluting the breed is not only silly it is without merit or evidence that is not completely circumstancial.

BTW- I'm sure that Lasix, bute or steroids were not the key to the improvement to this horse.

Hey Drugs. Yep - Princess Rooney does have the fastest Distaff...a 120. Here are the BC Distaff #'s:

Distaff
06 - Round Pond - 100
05 - Pleasant Home - 107
04 - Ashado - 102
03 - Adoaration - 101
02 - Azeri - 111
01 - Unbridled Elaine - 102
00 - Spain - 108
99 - Beautiful Pleasure - 109
98 - Escena - 105
97 - Ajina - 108
96 - Jewel Princess - 114
95 - Inside Information - 119
94 - One Dreamer - 105
93 - Hollywood Wildcat - 108
92 - Paseana - 105
91 - Dance Smartly - 107
90 - Bayakoa - 113
89 - Bayakoa - 115
88 - Personal Ensign - 115
87 - Sacahuista - 106
86 - Lady's Secret - 113
85 - Life's Magic - 110
84 - Princess Rooney - 120

Princess Rooney had a helluva record. There are so many horses like that (Bold N Determined, Genuine Risk etc) with incredible records. I suspect you have the DRF Champions book as well... :)

can't help wondering tho, are todays horses really more fragile? or does the dollar dictate the sparse racing schedule, the early retirement? i think it is partly responsible for the barely double-digit starts for most horses. look back over the years, take man o war for instance. he raced the exact same number of races as secretariat, 50-some years later. both raced only at two and three. both were highly prized in the shed. both retired sound. count fleet, who ran in the forties, smack between the two big reds, raced 21 times as well, the same number as the other two. also retired at three, after the belmont (sound familiar?). dr fager, native dancer and seattle slew ran at four, with doc and native dancer running 22 times, and slew only 17.

the use of drugs is a bone of contention, keeping horses on the track that years ago would not have been, BUT by the same token, miracles of modern science have helped to heal horses that years ago would have been lost.

i think many horses are handled with kid gloves these days not so much due to fragility, but due to monetary value. it's no longer a sport, but a business. it's not a matter of who breeds the best horse and proves it on the track, but who can win a fancy race and beat the rush to the shed.

I have the original edition.

It's falling apart though.

I'm sure as well.

Something beyond hay, oats, water and good honest horsemanship was though.

Probably more knowledgable about some things that are a part of training like biases, speed figures, and we all know a lot more about horses from a medical standpoint. But I think that the average trainer back then probably had better instincts for horses and horsemanship then his modern counterpart.

As a sidebar, let me add that there is really only one trainer from the 60's-70's who is still training and doing well. Allen Jerkens. He is one of the few trainers from that era and before who was able to adapt to the modern game and still do well. Of course a lot of them are dead but there are some guys who are in the Hall of Fame who are still training or recently retired who the game just seemed to pass by. Of course I am biased but much of my information on the training of horses in the "good old days" comes from him including how he has changed his methods.

Yeah, that's a good start.

Thanks for helping me out there

You missed John Veitch

Here's something you might not have known....

Bobby Frankel won a share of the Saratoga training title in 1970. "The Chief" didn't win his first of three until the next year.

I had to look it up - but I remember hearing about Frankel winning one of those long before I was ever born.

Believe it or not there was a time when Saratoga was not that big of a deal

It wasn't in 1970?

That years Horse of the Year, champion 2yo filly, champion 3yo male, champion 3yo filly, champion older mare, champion handicap horse, champion Grass horse and champion steeplechase horse all made at least one start at the four week long '70 Saratoga meet.

Only the champion 2yo male and the champion sprinter didn't. The champion 2yo male didn't debut until after Saratoga was finished - and while the champion sprinter didn't run there - she ran there both of the previous two years.

I don't see how you can say the meet wasn't that important. That's a lot of action for four weeks.

I believe that the "medication" or "drug" topic often becomes the scapegoat of the many ills. Not there is not a drug or medication problem, however it's not the exclusive problematic factor that some make it out to be.

One item that I think is often overlooked beyond the superficial discussions is the "breed" itself. Talk to an expert on breeding and pedigree -- someone like a Bob Fox. The gene pool has been diluted over the course of years, due to a variety of reasons. One could argue Tesio theories all day long, inbred this and outcross that, and so on. However, just by looking at the what has happened in the breeding industry, we can see what has happened to the breed.

There are exceptions to rules and rules that are exceptions, however, I think those that argue that the breed, genetically, has not suffered, are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to certain realities.

Eric

Huh?

I did not say that good horses did not run there but Belmonts fall meet was considered much more important which is not the case anymore.

Well - that's because of the Breeders Cup I would think.

Still, Frankel had to have been a good trainer in 1970 to win a share of the training title there.

Who said that Frankel wasn't a good trainer?

I'm not posting under the moniker RAGS right now dude - I know you think he's a good trainer.


My point was - he was probably an outstanding trainer in 1970 as well - on the basis of the fact that he won a share of the Saratoga training title.


And that you might have left him out when you said....

Bruce Headley might be another guy - but neither was even close to being as accomplished as Jerkens was back during that time.

I don't know if you ever will. Thanks to Sightseek (and presumably Kiris Clown for posting it, I finally got to see the replay of the race that made me dance in the Belmont grandstand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSo-MRDbQ1k

Let's review, for a minute, who he beat in his last three races.
Woodward:
Saint Liam- HOTY, BCC winner, 5 time GSW (4 G1's)
Bowman's Band- G2 winner, 12 time GS placed
Newfoundland- multiple GSW/GSP
Seek Gold- G1 winner
Midway Road- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Keeneland 9F
Presidentialaffair- multiple GSW, track recordholder at Monmouth

BC Classic (maybe the best field ever assembled for the race):
Roses in May- multiple GSW, Dubai World Cup, etc.
Pleasantly Perfect- BCC winner, Dubai World Cup, 6 G1/G2 wins
Perfect Drift- 7x GSW, 22x GSP
Azeri- Champion female 3x, HOTY, 13x GSW (11 G1's)
Personal Rush- how did he finish 6th?!? but a champion in Japan
Birdstone- '03 Champagne, '04 Belmont, '04 Travers winner
Dynever- multiple G3 winner
Fantasticat- '04 Super Derby winner
Funny Cide- Derby, Preakness, '04 JCGC winner, et al. 5x GSW
Bowman's Band- see above
Newfoundland- see above
Freefourinternet- 4x G2 winner (believe it or not)

Met Mile:
Silver Wagon- 4x GSW, 2x G1 winner
Forest Danger- G1 winner
Pomeroy- 2x G1 winner, multiple GSW
Sir Shackelton- 3x GSW
Love of Money- G2 winner

Let's not get carried away, he beat 3 very nice horses and one great filly who wasn't quite in his league. Half the low level stakes horses around have beaten Seek Gold and Perfect Drift (and a lot of the other horses you've mentioned). I really don't think they add to his legacy. His legacy is his amazing speed figures, not who he beat and what they accomplished at various points in their careers.

I forgot Frankel mainly because he has been a West Coast trainer until recent years. I never considered Bruce Headly as a big trainer. And Polytrack may be the end of him.

They would have for sure. However, I doubt either would have done so as stylishly as GZ did.

:cool:

It funny that a guy who's supposedly had just one fatal breakdown on the racetrack in forty years is the guy having the toughest go of it with the synthetics out West.

All comes down to your preference. Cigar could have taken them on every four weeks for six months straight and beat them. Ghostzapper couldn't have done that but would have beat them more impressively than Cigar could when he could actually race. Not really fair to compare the two, both should just be appreciated for what they could do.

How can they breakdown if they never run? He makes Angel Penna look like a trotting horse trainer.

Thanks for putting up the link, i finally got to see it!! :eek:

but tesios main rule was breed the best to the best, and hope for the best. that's not the rule any longer--people are no longer trying to improve the breed, they're trying to improve their bottom line. THAT is the biggest problem facing the sport. it used to be that breeders raced their horses, to show they knew what they were doing. that they had taken a good thing, and made it better. not many of them left.