Nothing could of helped this thread.

its not about being obvious before the race or that anyone posted it or bet on it. forget about any of that. lets say nobody saw it and we are merely trying to understand what happened. I don't know about you but whenever I'm engaged in a race that I have studied and the outcome is a total surprise I study it after the fact to try to learn. I figure if I can figure out what I missed it only makes me better down the road.

I wouldn't disparage any of Brass Hats races, as in his Whitney finish. Its a miracle he is racing at that level after I think two surgeries. The fact is he set a track record at Churchill and I doubt that it was the lone day in 37 years that Churchill has had a souped up track, and good luck in your race analysis if you ignore the racing path on the turn. I didn' say anything about a horrible trip, i simply stated the fact that he was 2 wide on the turns.

You said you're not a Lava Man guy, and also said that you think the older west coast division is weak, but I still haven't heard you say who was the more obvious horse than Student Council, that should have won the race? I have asked several times. Can you build a solid case for anyone? I have backed up my case for Student Council with speed figures and prior race review. You disagree with me so lets hear your case for any of the other horses.

I can buy that Student Council might have been able to beat Lava Man on dirt. No way though that I can believe five horses including Big Booster would have beat him had the race been on dirt. No way he is worse than third and he is likely the winner if it wasn't poly.

I've barely been able to find enough time in the day to cap Saratoga. Any additional time goes to the Ellis Park Pick Four long before the polycrap.

But I can guarantee I would have found time to fully cap and bet the race if it was still on dirt.

And my whole point this whole time is that races can get "a bit tainted" for any number of reasons, and you're raising hell over the surface. Races can get "a bit tainted" because of pace meltdowns, souped up tracks, a horse breaking down, weak fields, etc, the list goes on in perpetuity.

You're just making it sound like poly is the one single factor that allowed Student Council to stumble down the lane past, the way you're talking about it, a whole group of world-beaters in a million dollar Grade I. This race was plenty tainted once that ridiculous group passed the entry box.

Some of us are looking at lots of angles as to why that could have happened, beginning at the entry box, you're going with tunnel-vision and screaming about the surface and oh how badly it hurt your eyes to even watch.

B, the surface blows. JMO.

That's a fine opinion to have, and I fully respect anyone's choice to not take their wagering dollars to Del Mar this summer.

But at the same time, that's not a solid argument in this type of conversation.

Of course, you're going to be intellectually honest about it and also take into account the field Student Council faces next time, right?

Naturally, he could finish up the track on dirt against East Coast horses, and it would prove almost nothing about this race.

Just putting that out there in advance so everyone doesn't get too proud of themselves if he returns to tougher competition and doesn't duplicate this effort.

2:07 final time... really Brian, even those dogs should be able to run faster than that.

the poly is crap! at least cushion seems to be ok, hopefully if other tracks switch, it will be to cushion and not poly.

Del Mar, Woodbine, and Arlington should throw that **** out and get a refund.

I'd much rather try to make sense of it and look at it logically instead of letting a groundswell of emotion come over me and flip out and scream bloody poly murder everytime something happens on poly that I don't like/expect/care for and everytime a horse wins a graded stakes race that I don't think deserves it.

But hey, to each his own -- if it works for you....

Sure seems like you are to me.

Yep.

Star of Cozzene and John Henry won their Arlington Millions in 2:07 and change, I believe. Dogs.

Uproar, please.

Some facts from the Pac Classic

Poly was the reasone for the slooooww time - Fact

Despite the size of it the field outside of LavaMan was weak - Fact

Lava Man did not handle the poly well - fact

Student Council is a non deserving GI winner who benefited from the Poly -
we don't know yet. We will have to see how he does in his next few efforts. It's not the first time a longshot bomb (mule) has won a major race.
Hmm Giacomo, Lemons forever ( I think that's the one - KY Oaks winner last year) Sarava in the Belmont, Volponie in the BCC. just to name a few.

Let's see what he does the rest of the year.

Only slightly, and you know it.

Sure the turf was slow those days. Poly at Del Mar is slow.

Turf, and poly are apples and oranges, as you choose to say.

However, using final times on surfaces that are obviously slower than their traditional counterparts as a sole reason to discredit a performance is a silly notion. Ie, what basis are you using for finding the final 2:07 time to be slow? Traditional dirt? Del Mar's poly?

No fruit comparison needed.

Not sure I would compare poly to turf...

Neither would I, except to make this incredible point I'm in the middle of making.

See my last post -- so why are you comparing final times on poly to an old dirt track?

I see your point, but the fact still remains that it was run probably an average of 7 seconds slower than it ever has been. That's kind of scary... why would we want to change racing in that kind of manner?

I'm not being ridiculous, I'm trying to make a point.

What is the par time for ten furlongs on Del Mar's polytrack? Based on how slow the rest of the races are being run on the surface, something tells me it's closer to 2:07 than it is to 2:00.

So anyone complaining about them going 2:07, and using that as an indicator that the race was necessariliy tainted, is actually comparing apples to oranges, to borrow an expression.

2:07 seems slow because people are comparing it to......dirt, which I may take a moment to remind you, Del Mar's surface is not.

In the same way, John Henry or Star of Cozzenne running a 2:07 does not discredit their performance because the turf they were running over was an inherently different surface from a traditional, firm, turf course that would produce times closer to 2:01. So to discredit their performances using the standard of a faster turf course would be silly.

So why are we doing it here?

What is so ridiculous about that question?

I know, and this whole time thing began in a response to Lori's post about how those "dogs" should be able to go faster than 2:07, to which Jamie agreed, and at which point I brought up the Million, at which point you called me ridiculous for doing so, at which point I explained myself, at which point you said you weren't talking about the time.

Whew. That's how we got here. You just got caught up in the conversation I was having with Jamie.

LOL

This is what happens when women come in here uninvited. :eek: :D

So Brian, your point is that Student Council is a deserving, $1 million dollar Grade 1 winner. DaHoss feels otherwise.

I happen to agree with Hossy and feel there is no way student council would be the pac classic winner if the race had not been on poly. It was an terribly weak race with a bunch of nobodys and Lava Man. If the race had not been on poly, hopefully a few better horses would have run in it, and there is no way student council wins. If the race had not been on poly, tiago would have run, and i feel would have crushed student council. (just mentioning tiago.. but I feel a handful of horses would have crushed SC) Student Council will be lucky to finish 5th or 6th in a Grade 1 on the dirt ever.

Therefore, the reason Student Council is a Grade one winner ..... Ding Ding! Polytrack!


So, on to a different point. Do you really like this poly crap and the blazing fast times they are running on it? I cant even watch that ****. Bring on a 385lb stripper.

ArlJim brought up some points, as did Cannon -- that on paper, purely from a numbers perspective, Student Council was officially "faster" than just about everyone in that race. I didn't even handicap the race beforehand because I wasn't playing it, so I can't say how I would have felt beforehand.

But it's not like Student Council was some nag that happened to run the race of his life, and one that was way out of line with other races he had run. According to TG, Student Council was basically the second fastest horse in the race, and faster than Lava Man's last two races.

I don't think Tiago would have necessarily beat Student Council.

And as for watching it, I don't play Del Mar anyway, but I watch most of the races afterwards -- and I haven't really had a problem watching it. I love horse racing. Period.

However, I haven't had a better time watching racing anywhere than I have watching Arlington this meet, so I guess my answer would be, yes, I do enjoy watching it.

Ps -- amazing, I've never seen anyone redboard the entry box in such a way before.

another perceptive remark to add to the ever growing list.

its sucks.
its a joke.
its an eyesore.
it blows.

you poly bashers really can make an argument.

Stop making me laugh... :D

I don't like the fact that it's slowing horses down when they're bred to be fast. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm all for a safer surface, but come on now... does it really have to slow them down like that?

what is scary about it?:eek: its just a time.

what should the time have been? what is the optimum time for a 10F race on poly in your opinion?

if its too slow why can't I also make the claim that 2:02 is too slow and claim that the dirt tracks be sped up? why not 1:59 or 1:57? Lets make it a speedway.

when you go to a Nascar race do you care about the elapsed time or who the winner was and how the race was ran? I don't know but I'm asking because I think the time is irrelevant.