I have never used the word "liberal" ... you can look up all of my posts and you won't find that word ... except in this post.

The word I use to describe people whose political beliefs are contrary to mine is "leftist" ... which means someone who believes in statism and collectivism and government control of people's lives.

On the other hand ... a "liberal" is someone who believes in freedom ... and the right of individuals to live their lives without suppression or coercion by the government. A "liberal" is almost the exact opposite of a "leftist." And that's how I describe my political and economic beliefs ... I am a liberal ... I believe in individual freedom.

July 5 ... 10:41am ... here it is again ...

"OK ... after a refreshing night's sleep ... let's get back on the job ...

You state that I don't answer questions posed to me ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the questions ... and I will answer them.

You state that I misrepresent what you and others posted ... but you provide no examples. Please cite the alleged misrepresentations ... and I will address them.

You state ... over and over again ... that white males have a greater probability of experiencing the full benefits of society ... yet after dozens of posts and many imprecations from others ... you still haven't stated what those benefits are ... nor have you provided any data to support your basic premise. Once again ... please tell us what these "benefits" are ... and please provide some support for your premise. (And please don't provide personal anecdotes ... because there's no way anyone else can verify or dispute them.)

Hope you had a good rest too."

You still have no answers because those you follow blindly have successfully taught you not to think for yourself and you are not strong enough to overcome that. Instead of provisding a real answer to the PAlestinian grievance and single state/cede questions (Simple yes or no type questions) you continue to spew forth the same stock answers you have been programmed to espouse.

Do not think I (or anyone else) believes for one second that you are forthright and honest and posess the ability and courage to respond directly and sincerely. That, my friend, makes you a coward. Your attempt to "put over" on me by continually referring to your non-response is evidence of your self-proclaimed superiority. But, you fool noone, other than yourself. That makes you, yes, an idiot. You hate, pure and simple. You're the worst kind of bigot.

There you are. Coward. Bigot. Idiot.

Once again ... strategies and objectives are being confused.

The objective of any American president ... in fact his mandate under the Constitution ... is to protect the lives and freedom of the American people.

Since September 11, 2001 ... the Bush administration has acheived that objective with spectacular success. There has not been a single attack on American soil in nearly five years.

If someone had said to me on September 12, 2001 ... that there would not be a single terrorist attack on the U.S. for the next five years ... I ... and probably you too ... would have said, "How can that be? Surely there will be dozens ... maybe hundreds of attacks ... large, medium, and small. No attacks at all for the next five years ... is impossible!"

What has happened over the past five years is that our professionally-trained armed forces have fought the terrorists on their turf ... and have killed or otherwise eliminated ... vast numbers of them ... all the while allowing each of us to sit at our keyboards in peace and safety. Some of our very good and brave people have died in the process ... but that's what happens when you fight back at a determined and well-armed enemy ... some good people die. But better it be a relatively small number of trained professionals than much larger numbers of untrained civilians.

President Bush and his administration have been extremely successful in achieveing their ... and our ... objective. Nitpicking over strategy details is utterly meaningless ... the objective is being achieved ... we've all been free and safe ... and that's all that counts.

What you don't seem to understand is that everyone has grievances ... there isn't a single nation or single ethnic group in the world which doesn't.

And the answer to all these "grievances" is exactly the same ... eschew hatred and violence ... and embrace freedom, understanding, and tolerance.

That applies to Palestinians and everyone else ... stop wasting time on hatred and stop using violence as a tactic ... love your neighbors and treat them with kindness and respect ...

... and stop making personal attacks and cursing.

Well stated.

As has been often said ... the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

When will they realize that hatred and violence have only led them to misery ... and may ultimately lead them to doom?

I dont have time for all of them:

Misrepresentation:and what's so insufferable about life in the United States for people who aren't "white" males ... and where life would be better for them.
Where did I ever mention life was insufferable for people that are not white males? And the answer to your question posed, IMO this is the best country in the world to get a fair shake for all.

Not answering my question: And what a horrible example with the sports... Who are the OWNERS of the big 3 sports? Do you actually think the employees make more money than the owners? Is this what you are implying?

I ask you to take a look at every position that has an important decision making role in this country, and/or the ultra rich billionaires. Now look at at the numbers. The vast majority are white and male. I am making no statements about why the numbers are skewed, I am asking YOU to look at the numbers.
For the time being I will NARROWLY define reaping the full benefits this country has to offer with the aforementioned: Positions of making important decisions that effect a large number of people, and or very wealthy.

Now. After looking at the numbers I am made a claim that I am sticking with.

If you do refute my claim, I would like to know why the numbers are skewed towards white males (which they are, dont play with me with minor numbers like Condy Rice)? This is why I was careful to write PROBABILITY, and all other things being equal (hardworking, reliable, educated).

Good day. I await your valid, thoughtful response. You are taking on a very tough question.

OOPs. Almost forgot. Another statement. If one is black or hispanic, one has a greater probability of ending up in prison than if one is white. There are clearly disproportionate numbers compared to the general population. Got an answer for this one?

LOL....

You have no answers. Only insults for the oppressed. And support for Dixie's lamentably extreme wish to thurn these people into dust.

Simple questions I asked you. Never a response from you. Never. Never have. Never will. It's not surprising as you cannot think for yourself.

Peolple like you just hate and support oppression. For years it was the "No partner in peace" myth propogating Arafat as the obstacle. As strong a myth as your hatred and cowardice are obvious.

You and yours have the issue and, at the moment, the upper hand. Congratulations. Enjoy it while you can. The issue is your goal. Not peace.

Doubtful, very doubtful. Interesting thought, but doubtful.

Good luck to your daughter in the IAF. I hope she hates less than you.

YOU better learn that thankfully very few people share your insane views. Sooner the better, for your own sake.

I should give up now, white men rule America and the world

I am a terrible speller. Especially proper nouns. We usually dont pick on stuff like that but if you would like me to go back through your posts do you think I would find any?

ANd.... I will make you a wager she will NOT be our next president if you would like?

Seattle, Seattle. Congrats on your family doing so well. Your parents picked the right country to come to.

If you read my statement carefully, I think you will understand that numbers can be very telling. Carefully. Probability is a key word. I also think if you read the discourse between Irishtrekker and myself you will understand our probing and lack of clear answers for obvious trends.

Pgardn, just one time couldnt you spout that someone or some team will win something rather than taking the obvious 1-9 shot that a given something or someone won't win something? After all, in that case you only have every other horse in a race, team in race, or candidate to root for. Now if you want to start laying vegas odds rather than even money(nice attempt to sucker people into an even money bet on a prop that is never that low), it might be more fair. Its hard to say YOU THE MAN to someone who always takes every possibility except one in a proclamation or wager.
And to answer your response about why those groups end up in prison more, I'd say the answer is that they commit crimes that send them there. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Of course your next response will be to ask why they commit those crimes.

Funny that the immigrants who came here in the late 19th and early 20th centuries ended up doing so well(their kids did even better). Reason? Simple, they were proud to be Americans. They wanted to adopt our ways and fit in. They took great pains to learn English and try to be Americans. They did keep their own traditions and cultural values but they didn't try to ram them down the throats of the very people's land they came to be part of.
They embraced this land and worked hard to achieve. WORKED is the key word in that sentence.
I'm and American, and a proud one. It doesn't make me racist or hateful to say that noone in America should have to speak someone else's language. If a bunch of Americans decided to emigrate to a land where they didnt speak English I don't think that trying to force that land to learn our language would be reasonable either.
If they don't like our language or our ways then they really should go right the hell back to wherever they came from.
The fact is that groups who dont want to assimilate into the mainstream will always be penalized. Thats just how it is. I'm no racist, and will call an ******* an ******* whether he is white, purple, yellow, or blue.
But do you really think that some of the groups you cry for don't peanlize themselves? How do you get a good job in the mianstream speaking gangbanger slang lingo and wearing gangbanger apparel.
Newsflash Patrick, if I showed up for an interview wearing clothes out of place to what is acceptable to the mainstream and spoke poorly, I'm not gonna get hired either. So spare me thats its based on color. Its based on anyone's willingness to act and dress and perform to teh acceptable standards in this country. And if you don't wanna learn the language thats your problem pal, not ours. This is America and if you came here voluntarily you had to know that English was spoken here. Its irrational to expect a guy to hire a guy or gal who cant speak English when the WIDE majority of the people that they deal with do. Same goes for mannerisms and dress. Employers want neat people who make a good appearance that their clients will want to deal with.

Mike my boy I said the Spurs would win the NBA championship. I was wrong. That last sentence read that carefully. You could use those 3 words yourself.
When did I lay even odds? My proposed bet with the Dixiemeister said nothing about even up?

And since you already figured out my next question, answer it. I have some ideas (not typed yet), lets see yours.

LOL MR G, theres no other country worth coming to except the good ole USA.
Just imagine if they ended up in Canada, id kill myself

I think that those groups have a higher poverty rate and that if you looked at whites in the poverty classification you would see that they get locked up a whole lot as well. I think its a poverty thing, not a racial thing. You don't see blacks and hispanics who live in nice neighborhoods bailiing their kids out of jail very often either.
The mistake it to paint it as a racial issue.

For simplicity ... I numbered the paragraphs in your post.

1. You didn't specifically mention that, but you implied it. If you say that wasn't your implication, I'll accept it.

2. Yes, many "employees' (players) make more money than the owners. The highest paid baseball, football, and basketball players ... most of whom aren't "white" ... certainly do. For money-losing franchises ... and there are lots of those ... ALL of the employees do. And ... in mentioning thoroughbred racing ... you left out jockeys ... most of whom again aren't "white" ... and most of whom make far more money than most trainers ... and certainly more than 90% of the owners who lose their shirts.

3 & 4. Both of these are simply a function of how long various groups have been in the United States. Those which have been here since the 17th century are more likely to be entrenched than those which only arrived in the late 20th century. (The only exception being African Americans who have been here a long time ... but who did not have equal opportunity until recently.)

200 years ago almost every elected official was of English, Dutch or German ancestry ... today all Europeans, African, and Hispanics are significantly represented ... and recently-arrived Asians are closing fast down the center of the track. Every group has large ... and growing ... numbers of wealthy individuals and decision makers.

I just don't see where your obsession with race and ethnicity fits in with 21st century America.

And now we get down to the meat of the matter. I agree with the economic side. So why do we have more minorities in low socioeconomic classifications.

No hard work?
Unwillingness to embrace America?
Not willing to speak clean English?
Not dressing properly?

This is what I am gathering. Got to go. I shall return.

This thread is amazing to try to follow. It started as a salute to librarians and it has encompassed race, gender, poverty, immigration, the middle east, politics, as well as other stuff I don't have time to document. I love it. Although there is too much in the way of mean spirited comments for my liking, I think the airing out of passions is a good thing.

And to think that this is all occurring on an OT thread of a horse racing board!!

Actually ...

... her name was supposed to be "Condolcezza" ... an Italian musical term meaning "with sweetness" ... but ...

... somehow the "c" got changed to an "e" and it came out "Condoleezza." Not wanting to fight city hall ... her folks left it that way ... and "Condoleezza" it is.

She's a brilliant lady ... but I'm not sure she'd be a good president. Politics is a profession ... and running for office ... and winning ... requires a whole different set of skills. It's tough to see how ... in this day and age ... someone can win the presidency in her first try for elected office.

lets cut the bs, when people speak of minorities in low socioeconomic classifications we should just point out blacks, hispanics, and native americans. Don't clump in the Asians in that category anymore, cause apparently the label "minority" doesnt apply to us in certain instiutions anymore

Yes ... yes ... yes ... and yes.

For the wealthy "minorities" who live on my block ... the answers are ... no ... no ... no ... and no.

Come back soon.

Yes ... it's quite amazing how Asians are always left out of these maudlin, bleeding heart discussions of how tough it is for "minorities."

Hey ... it's not tough for "minorities" ... it's tough for the lazy, the slovenly, the substance abuser, and the criminal.

Hardworking, persevering, law-abiding, respectful people of all backgrounds get ahead ... but bums don't ... very simple.

Brooklyn I have to say that I agree with those things, all of them.

If you want to work hard, dress properly(doesnt have to be designer shirts and 400 dollar shoes, you can get some stuff at TJ Maxx or Marshalls like khakis and a button down shirt real cheap), speak English, and show pride as an American(please don't ask me to speak your language and take a day off for your Holiday, and please don't tell me all about what we do wrong in this country when we were kind enough to accept you into the fold) I can gurantee you that no matter what color or creed you are that you are going to have a better chance at success than a white male who doesnt want to work very hard and dresses like a slob.

Lots of passions.
It went to places I never expected..and on an OT thread of a horse racing message board....
Some informed views, some not. At least those that took this thread as an opportunity to expess their ideas have certainly done so.

I'm still waiting for Osama's corpse to show up on CNN, as well as the satellite photos of the 80% of WMD's going to Syria.

Now, let's get back to discussing enculturation of ethnic groups and discrepancies in the genetic predisposition of melanin in dermal tissue.

I can't wait.

Carry on!

DTS

Its not real hard to see that. Geez its amazing(rolling my eyes) that a guy who speaks bad English and dresses like a "gangsta" can't get a good job. I can barely believe it. O"Reilly has it right. Its not racial discrimination, its human discrimination. Humans who don't want to conform to society's norms and standards are not gonna cut it.

She is brilliant but I don't think she has the fire in the belly to be a real politician. That is a dirty slimy business that I doubt she will want to tackle.
She'll be a success at whatever she set's her sights on.

hey mike they cant help it if they are that way, its the environment thery were raised in its society's fault

I'd also like to add that when this thread has run its course, I hope it is retired to the Charles Hatton Reading Room.
Some sociology grad student will be able to sort it out and maybe get a nice paper out of it. Might take some time, but a worthy effort to digest the discourse.
It's quite a slice.

I also would like threads like this one kept around somewhere. Although a little rough in areas it contains a lot of good back and forth. It also gives a unique insight into another side of the regulars that you would never pick up in the horse section.

Heck, disecting this thread could be the subject for a whole semester for a sociology class.

For Seattle first. The two major minoritites are hispanic and black, in that order. Asians are a distance third % wise.

And I will go a step in a different direction. I think it has to do with family. I believe a stable family where hard work and education are valued, lead to a greater probablility of experiencing the wonderful advanatages this country has to offer. Now another look at the numbers. It is very clear that black families experience a much higher rate of break up. Dad "usually" leaves the kids behind. This is what the numbers say. Most often kids in juuvy, and then jail, come from broken disfunctional families.

So why do black families experience a higher rate of breakup, that I personally believe cascades into a number of other problems?

And Seattle I think you now have what I believe is the reason for the success of the Asian minority. The family.

Sorry to push my own quote forward again, but I don't feel like anyone's really addressed it. These kids face a lot more challenges than not wanting to dress appropriately, or whatever. Oh, and Seattle, some of them were Pacific Islanders and/or Southeast Asians. Some of them were white. Some were African American. Some were Alaska Native/American Indian. We saw a little bit of everything. The people in our program were the ones who really, really wanted to get out because our HUD funding requirements were too stringent to take anyone who didn't have a significant chance of getting into permanent housing. But the reality is that HUD funding has been slashed and Section 8's aren't being allocated anymore. The waitlist for Section 8 was *closed* in Seattle when I worked there, and people still left on the waitlist had a 3-5 year wait for permanent housing. Transitional shelters can't hold you for more than 18 months to two years MAX, and the waitlists for places like us are really, really long. So kids of homeless parents get bounced from shelter to shelter for years. Schools have to change, friends disappear, money is almost nonexistent...think that doesn't make it harder for them?

All I'm saying is that it's unfair to come down hard on kids who don't stand much of a chance by accusing them of being lazy/ungrateful as adults. If we're such a pro-life nation, why don't we make sure that every child is able to thrive and be protected until they're old enough to make their own decisions? Life doesn't end at birth...but for some of the kids I knew, it might as well have. Sorry, but I can't even explain how awful some of the stuff was that I saw. You can't control the circumstances into which you're born, and when you're born homeless, in some way you've already fallen out of the social nets that are supposed to catch you. Do some homeless kids wind up doing amazing things? Of course. But a lot don't, and I'll be damned if I'm going to shake my head and say, "If only they worked a little harder..."

For sure, ArlJim.

im at work right now, but I will discuss these issues further when I get home. I LOVE THIS! I feel like im in college again, great input from everyone

Up through the 1950's ... black families were just as stable ... and even slightly more so ... than whites.

But many black families bought into the fool's gold of the great society and the welfare state ... government welfare, government housing, government education, government healthcare, government meals ... and proceeded to go right down the drain as all socialists throughout the world have done.

The ones who didn't buy into the welfare state ... who were hard-working and self-reliant ... have done just as well as everyone else. Since the welfare law was reformed about ten years ago ... many others have gotten off the plantation and become self-reliant.

If you want to read up on this subject ... the world's foremost expert ... who has done massive research using actual census statistics ... is ...

... Thomas Sowell !!!

Thomas Sowell is black and came from a underprivillaged childhood in NY. One of my favorite intellectuals out there, was introduced to him in my introductory Microeconimics class. Since then ive tried to read everything he puts out, I think he still works at Stanford, and basically gets paid to think

Speaking of Dr. Sowell ...

... his latest opinion column ... published today ... is very relevant to this thread ... here it is ...

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/T..._and_blacks_ii

Why would Black families need any government help if the 1950's were so hunky-dory?

And I have read the guy. I get very skeptical when a person refers to one "expert". And if you mention Bill O'Reilly in the same sentence as Thomas Sowell, I am going to have huge problems. O'Reilly showed his true stripes already trying to battle a silly comedian. O'Reilly is the actor for the right that need entertainment versus substance. Same with Limbaugh. Same with James Corvell or whatever that I dont listen to anymore for the left. These guys are entertainers.

You will find Mr. Sowell's finest work referenced on the site townhall.com, right next to the link labeled, " How to buy a semi-automatic weapon."