I don’t know that.

Explain.

Why doesn’t Student Council deserve to be a Grade I winner? Because of the slow time? Because of the way the race was run? Sutra’s was exactly the same thing, she accidentally won a Grade I race. I don’t see anything different about it. Is it the shape of the race, the way speed stopped, or the strength of the field? I could be talking about either Sutra or Student Council with those questions.

Stuff happens, and horses win races that they shouldn’t win on paper, and don’t deserve to win on paper. It’s no different than a horse winning from 20 lengths off in a six furlong Grade I after three horses go the opening half in 44 1/5 – the race is just given to them.

Obviously I’m missing the difference in what you’re saying, because I’m not seeing any legit reason to moan about Sunday’s result still.

G1 races in the Classic Division are held to a far greater level of scrutiny than races from any other division (especially 2yo fillies). These races are supposed to be the best of the best.

Ok, if I don't explain anything that I think while asking what the problem is, then could you explain?

You're not explaining why it's different when Sutra wins a ridiculous Grade I than when Student Council wins one, except to say that it's apples and oranges, which I don't think it is. So I'm asking.

If you don't like the question and think I'm just badgering you, then I'll shut up.

I'm only asking for the sake of trying to understand because I'm clearly not getting where you're coming from.

So it's the field strength then?

That's a fair answer.

That and it just being the glamour division.

This thread would have been so much better with some female intervention. ;)

Sutra winning a G 1 was pretty ridiculous but those things happen with very lightly raced horses. In the Male dirt G 1 "division" just 10 years ago a horse like Student Council would have been 50-1 or 60-1 instead of 23-1. Horses like him could step into a G2 or G3 race and win but not in a G1. It just did not happen. That's the biggest problem, horses using G 1's as preps, making every race other than the BC a sub-plot. Then you toss in the Polytrack and and there's no longer any conventional wisdom. Peolpe just like their traditions, especially in horse racing. Personally, I don't care for the Polytrack but I don't bet Calif or Keeneland or AP anyway. But there certainly is opportunity for gain for people who can handicap it properly. I just think people are saddened that a race with the tradition and meaning like the Pacific Classic is compromised by the surface change.

Not from what I observed
:rolleyes:

You were drunk...what do you remember?

I wasn't a fan of Keenelands Poly. A Group of us from The NY area have been going to the Spring Meeting for quite some years. I always had a problem winning because of the old speed bias. After watching and taking notes from last Fall's meet on Poly, I managed to cash some nice tickets for the 4 days of the Blue Grass week-end. Keeneland definately did some tweaking of the track, and my guess is that come next year, we may see some very different conditions on the DM poly

I definately remembered Cajun, because she loved my accent

:D

Student Council didn't win strictly because of the poly. You're a good handicapper, and by now you surely have seen that he and Awesome Gem had the best TG#'s. Surely you can also recognize that he is impeccably bred for distance and that he was steadily getting better. Is it really such a shock that a horse with that talent and breeding would excel at 10 furlongs against a highly questionable group. Based on your traditionalist viewpoint, who would have been a more deserving winner from that field? Have you never seen upsets on dirt? If they ran the race on dirt and anyone other than Lava Man won, would you be calling that a joke as well? You should because there were no proven horses with classic distance GR1 credentials. Only Lava Man, and his credentials are somewhat suspect for reasons that have been reviewed over and over.

To me the joke is that Student Council was given less respect than horses like AP Xcellent, Big Booster, Albertus Maximus? The other joke is that more people couldn't see the writing on the wall in terms of Lava Man sending him off at even money after having had to gut out a win against AP Xcellent who has absolutely zero GR1 credentials.

I would just suggest that you might want to be a little more open minded and view the result in a context that is not so heavily colored by the surface. I think the surface effected the final time and little else about the outcome other than perhaps some of the margins.

The Pacific Classic was going to be a bad Grade 1 regardless of surface. When you line up a group of optional claimers, Grade 3 wanna be's and a 7 year old legit Grade 1 horse who seemingly has seen better days then are shocked by the result? It is not like he beat Invasor and Ghostzapper. Lava Man stopping does not really make a good case for anything because in many of the races in which he has been beaten he often fades badly. Some people despise the surface which is entirely their perogative. Others seem willing to accept the surface as it is, which is a work in progress. It certainly changes the way the game is played. But if you dont like it you better find something else to watch or bet on because it is coming to both NY and KY sooner than you think.

They are getting poly too. Sorry.

I thought that was were they got the poly from....

cajun, the restriction on females was for the original question only, about obese strippers vs dmr poly.

feel free to join in now. all women are welcome!

xcept morticia, of course.