Originally Posted by Pointg5

Excellent Post!

Only question and this is just for my knowledge. What does "hear their feet rattle" mean?

Originally Posted by 2MinsToPost

Ditto. Well written and provided me with a whole new perspective.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Randall or Derek or PointG do me a favor ok? get on the horn with Turfway and ask for their mutuel department, tell em you are just a casual race fan with a curiosity about it(which in itself would be considered vey strange if you don't have a vested interest in it). lemme know how fast the guy gives you the stats.
Look Euro, I like you, but the shows over. You obviously do indeed have a vested interest in either the tracks, the surfaces, or both. And i don't care who you are, I'd just appreciate it if you stopped insulting our intelligence as if we were all complete morons who had no idea that you do.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Randall or Derek or PointG do me a favor ok? get on the horn with Turfway and ask for their mutuel department, tell em you are just a casual race fan with a curiosity about it(which in itself would be considered vey strange if you don't have a vested interest in it). lemme know how fast the guy gives you the stats.
Look Euro, I like you, but the shows over. You obviously do indeed have a vested interest in either the tracks, the surfaces, or both. And i don't care who you are, I'd just appreciate it if you stopped insulting our intelligence as if we were all complete morons who had no idea that you do.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

I'll call at lunch, it's local for me...

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Again, I dont have a vested interest. I dont know how I can make that any clearer. I was a tires salesmen, a tire store owner and soon a college student again. I no zero interest in investing my money in something that I dont know much about. That isnt good business.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Ok, assuming thats true, why the cheerleading and shilling for tracks and a surface that you have no vested interest in?

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The reason tracks are installing artificial surfaces instead of better dirt tracks in maintenance costs. A good, deep dirt track that is properly banked on the turns takes a lot of care - to keep the cushion from migrating to the rail on the turns (gravity), to keep it at the right density by harrowing water into it, to keep it from becoming a quagmire in rain or a skating rink in cold. This means a lot of workers and a lot of equipment. Track managers are counting the beans and see that a surface that only needs occasional harrowing will save them beaucoup bucks. The cheap and easy way to keep horses from breaking down more often, as opposed to what we traditionalists would call the right way.

Originally Posted by oracle80

yeah God Forbid you use long gallops with occasional works not tilted towards seeing how fast the horse can possibly go every 7 days. Shoot if people did that, they might have sounder horses and win more races. Can't have that now can we.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Excellent Post!

Only question and this is just for my knowledge. What does "hear their feet rattle" mean?

Originally Posted by Round Pen

:D :D :D :D I like that

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

It is a phrase regarding horses that love hard and fast dirt tracks - which many of them do....again, its like running on a road or dirt path....yes, they are more hard on the bones because the surface is much tighter and the concussion is greater, but this is how we've bred and run horses for over a hundred years in America.....sires like Storm Cat ad A.P. indy are successful because they were bred to be superior over this hard, firm surface that is dirt...their genetic makeup and genetic biomechanics are fit to be the premier dirt horses in the world.....now on Polytrack we may see horses like Storm Cat become obsolete because the genetics of that lines may not like a softer surface that is more tiring, etc....I realize that mayu be an overdramatic statement, but there WILL be some significant changes to the game we've grown to love through hundreds of years of traditionif we install Polytrack everywhere.....

Originally Posted by oracle80

You mean evolution and breeding hasn't been geared towards ground up tires covered with wax. I'm absolutely ****ing shocked.:eek:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Exactly, but you have to talk about the Polytrack issue wearing kitten gloves because of all of the horses that are breaking down on dirt....I love the quick fix it provides to the health of the horse and the quick fix it provides to the entry box for racetracks to make them more money by having a BIGGER card to bet (but ironically, a decievingly worse ad more confusing card to bet for the handicapper), but I DO NOT like the fact that it will change the game in MORE ASPECTS THAN THE AVERAGE HORSE AN REALIZES!!!

I look at it like this:

Yes, I'm sad to see Barbaro break down on dirt, but it would be a greater shame in my opinion if Barbaro was never realized as a good horse had he had to run on Polytrack his whole life, because you never know...he might hae HATED it and just been another 'horse' - and not the Barbaro we grew to love by his turf and dirt efforts.....just saying..

The Polytrack will bring different kinds of champions, but I'll always question in the back of my mind how good a champion on Polytrack really is if he had to run on dirt...

Remember, horses are wild animals that learned how to run and be superior athletes in the natural environs of the planet - mostly consisting of GRASS pasteurs or DIRT trails....

God didn't make them to run on rubber tires and fibers covered in wax.....thats just my opinion though

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Well said...I agree deeply...this is EXACTLY why I am NOT a proponent of Polytrack....many top dirt horses won't act on it...

I still can't see how With a City won the Lane's End earlier this year....he couldn't have won on the dirt if they'd have let him cut through the infield....

This surface WILL change racing and in more negative ways than positive IMO....start taking notes

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Could he beat Premium Tap on the dirt? Absolutely, Premium Tap isn't the type that is guaranteed to fire every time out. That being said on a dirt surface Premium Tap would beat him 8 out of 10 times. However on the equibase figures Ball Four looked really competitive in the field and we had absolutely no clue how Premium Tap woud take to the surface so Ball Four was an absolute steal at double digit odds. I'm sorry you didn't bet him but the idea of you telling me that I'm an idiot for winning money off of him is absolutely ridiculous. If you bet the chalk in his first start on polytrack coming off the race of his life with Kent D aboard then you deserved to lose.

Originally Posted by jpops757

I have a gr8 idea for a safe track. How about a 6 foot deep river that is 1 mile long and runs in a circle, we can adjust it to flow in any direction and actually adjust its depth between 5 and 7 foot. You might be disapointed in the times and the lack of the better horses adjusting to the surface. One thing for sure, there will be none, Imean zero breakdown, We might suffer a few drownings but a horse will never have a soundness problem. The up keep for this new surface would be no more than the average swimming pool.

Originally Posted by oracle80

You tell us you have no vested interest in this stuff, yet you consistently shill it. I respect anyone's right to privacy, I really do. But you telling us that you are seeking out Biancone to ask him questions on the backside, reading minutes of a Keeneland meeting, and the funniest was when I caught you(and several people noted it to me in pm's saying good work) telling us how Turfway's handle was up opening day when it hadnt been announced to anyone yet what the handle even was. Your explanation whne I pointed this out was that you had spoken to the mutuel guy about it.
Look, I respect your right to be anonymous and not tell us who you are, but there isn't any way that you don't have some sort of vested interest in Turfway or keeneland or polytrack. NONE!
Do you honestly expect us to believe that Turfway's mutuel guy will just give out info not realeased to the public on handle to anyone.
If I called Turfway now and asked for the mutuel guy to give the meet end stats that havent been realeased yet do you think he would give them to me? How about if RandallScott or PointG called?
You are asking me to believe that you have no connection to Kee/TP/Poly and yet have information on handle and minutes of a meeting that public doesn't get.
Please stop insulting my intelligence ok? and everyone elses. You are shilling for everything they do on here, and attempting to tell us that you have no vested interest and are just a casual fan. Sorry, but a blind man could see thats not the case.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Don't you have a vested interest in the sport. Do you fear your business declining due to the implementation of polytrack?

Originally Posted by oracle80

Lharge, noone wants horses to get hurt but the BUSINESS of horse racing is pretty heavily reliant on wagering to kinda generate minor things like purses.
I've got a great idea Jpops!!!
Go and get us the paperwork to fill out for a patent today!!! YOu can be my partner!! We'll call it pillowtrack. We'll take thousands of pillows and use them as the base. Then we cover the pillow base with a 3 foot layer of feathers.
Sure it will take em 5 minutes to go 6 furlongs. But hey, I'm sure it won't take long to find out who the excellent pillow track stallions are. Injuries will drop down to nothing. And if one falls the jocks will be safe landing on the feathers over the pillow base.
Of course noone will bet the stuff, and tracks will go out of business, but as long as we have a bunch of safe horses thats all that matters!!
Pillow Track!!! A jpops/oracle company bringing the ultimate in safe race track conditions to a track near you!!! Coming soon!!!

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Exactly, but you have to talk about the Polytrack issue wearing kitten gloves because of all of the horses that are breaking down on dirt....I love the quick fix it provides to the health of the horse and the quick fix it provides to the entry box for racetracks to make them more money by having a BIGGER card to bet (but ironically, a decievingly worse ad more confusing card to bet for the handicapper), but I DO NOT like the fact that it will change the game in MORE ASPECTS THAN THE AVERAGE HORSE AN REALIZES!!!

I look at it like this:

Yes, I'm sad to see Barbaro break down on dirt, but it would be a greater shame in my opinion if Barbaro was never realized as a good horse had he had to run on Polytrack his whole life, because you never know...he might hae HATED it and just been another 'horse' - and not the Barbaro we grew to love by his turf and dirt efforts.....just saying..

The Polytrack will bring different kinds of champions, but I'll always question in the back of my mind how good a champion on Polytrack really is if he had to run on dirt...

Remember, horses are wild animals that learned how to run and be superior athletes in the natural environs of the planet - mostly consisting of GRASS pasteurs or DIRT trails....

God didn't make them to run on rubber tires and fibers covered in wax.....thats just my opinion though

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think you miss the point Pillow. Many people have a vested interest in the SPORT, which encompasses many things.
I asked if he had a vestetd interest in a specific track or company.

Originally Posted by oracle80

I think you miss the point Pillow. Many people have a vested interest in the SPORT, which encompasses many things.
I asked if he had a vestetd interest in a specific track or company.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

And I have said 100 times that I do not.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

If he does I see no harm with promoting his vested interest. You're doing the same thing by denouncing poly due to the fact it could have a negative impact on your business.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Lharge, noone wants horses to get hurt but the BUSINESS of horse racing is pretty heavily reliant on wagering to kinda generate minor things like purses.
I've got a great idea Jpops!!!
Go and get us the paperwork to fill out for a patent today!!! YOu can be my partner!! We'll call it pillowtrack. We'll take thousands of pillows and use them as the base. Then we cover the pillow base with a 3 foot layer of feathers.
Sure it will take em 5 minutes to go 6 furlongs. But hey, I'm sure it won't take long to find out who the excellent pillow track stallions are. Injuries will drop down to nothing. And if one falls the jocks will be safe landing on the feathers over the pillow base.
Of course noone will bet the stuff, and tracks will go out of business, but as long as we have a bunch of safe horses thats all that matters!!
Pillow Track!!! A jpops/oracle company bringing the ultimate in safe race track conditions to a track near you!!! Coming soon!!!

Originally Posted by oracle80

People will always buy horses.

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Can someone give me some good examples of older consistent horses that have gone to polytrack and absolutely run terrible just because of the surface? I've seen lots of 2yos move up or down off of it but that is normal for 2yos on any surface. Premium Tap ran a poor race but you can blame Kent D for his troubles more than the surface. The only major difference I have seen with polytrack is that turf horses like it a lot more than they like the dirt.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Exactly and people will figure out which bloodline takes to poly and things will even out in the end.

Originally Posted by oracle80

How about Lawyer Ron? Hes only earned over a mill on dirt. Lemons Forever comes to mind as well, off the board in a 100 grand polycrap race, next out wins the Oaks. Those are pretty good for starters.
If they stayed on poly they'd have been in for a tag after long.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Exactly and people will figure out which bloodline takes to poly and things will even out in the end.

Originally Posted by oracle80

They won't. Its not a breeding thing, its not something a horse can be bred for. It defies all evolution and breeding.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

One could argue that the Oaks is suspect since Lemons Forever has been pretty much a no show the rest of the year.

Originally Posted by oracle80

She still managed to hit the board in grade ones after that.
Bottom line is that she missed the board in a cheap stakes race filled with nobodies and in her next start won the Oaks.
Look, I can see you are pretty good at trying to play devil's advocate with every statement, but people who attempt that don't impress me. Its a very easy thing to do.
You can make up something along those lines for just about every horse can't you?
How about YOU telling us in for oh so infinite wisdom and knowledge about the ones who ran well on Poly and replicated the form on dirt. I promise not to be like you and play Devil's advocate with each one.
Feel free to enlighten us. Thanks!

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Go back and watch that race. Lemons Forever was closing very very fast at Turfway. It was a prep for the Oaks and the trainer didnt even have her cranked 100%. Her 3rd place performance at Turfway was a great prep to the Oaks. And since I got to see that race, saw how she worked, saw how pathetic the top horses in the Oaks looked---I benefited from a 40-1 shot winning.