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-   -   Why Lukas went downhill (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4666)

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 09:04 AM

[quote=oracle80]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I never said that Rupert. Obviously horses need time off when they have a minor problem so it doesn't become major, and obviously D Wayne could have done a better job with giving horses time off. I think thats obvious.
Noone is disputing that. But you name a trainer and I can name weaknesses that he or she has, just like you are with D Wayne.

To call it a weakness is the understatement of the year. He won't turn a horse out unless they are so lame that they can hardly walk. He breaks down so many horses that many of the big insurance companies will not insure his horses. I think that says it all. In addition, his win percenatage is 9%. If you think he's a good trainer, you can recommend that some of your owners give their next horse to him.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
He only got beat by 15 lengths prior to the BC because of Pletcher's poor use of a rabbit & Chantel Sutherland.

Oh that must have been why he lost by 15 lengths. Otherwise he would have been right there. LOL.

Balletto 09-19-2006 09:19 AM

I have no real opinion on this topic, although I think Lukas' record proves he's going to be remembered as one of the top trainers of all time... In the end, people are defined by what they've accomplished, not how well they were liked.

But I will say, I was the date of a guy who was invited to Satish's daughter's wedding. It was held at Padua and it was beautiful. But the date, a very high-end re-insurance owner, said that Satish wasnt well liked in the business world for a multiple of reasons I wont divulge.

Whether this has any bearing on the current topic, its not my place to say as it is second-hand, but there was direct corrilations between the two.

JJP 09-19-2006 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698
I know, imagine, a downhill trainer that trained a champion last year. Who'd a thunk it.

My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balletto
I have no real opinion on this topic, although I think Lukas' record proves he's going to be remembered as one of the top trainers of all time... In the end, people are defined by what they've accomplished, not how well they were liked.

But I will say, I was the date of a guy who was invited to Satish's daughter's wedding. It was held at Padua and it was beautiful. But the date, a very high-end re-insurance owner, said that Satish wasnt well liked in the business world for a multiple of reasons I wont divulge.

Whether this has any bearing on the current topic, its not my place to say as it is second-hand, but there was direct corrilations between the two.

You are right that in the history books Lukas will be remebered as one of the all-time greats. Some people may think that is all that matters. I don't know. I will tell you that he doesn't have the respect of his peers. They all think he's a terrible trainer and they all laugh at him. Some people may think that it's just sour grapes. That's not the case because you don't hear them saying that any other top trainers are terrible trainers.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJP
My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

He's talking about Folklore.

Sightseek 09-19-2006 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJP
My memory must be failing me. Lukas trained a champion last year? Are you referring to Azeri? I didn't think she won any Eclipse award last year. She certainly shouldn't have.

Didn't Folklore win the Filly Juvie Champ last year?

Linny 09-19-2006 10:06 AM

I was in Lukas' barn this summer and he had about 30 horses. He still has some for Mrs. Lewis including Simon Pure who won a race at SAR.
Those who know nothing of someone's business dealings should not profess knowledge they don't have.

I looked over every horse in the barn and saw many of them train and or race. They hardly looked abused.

DWL changed the business. He has proven to be the greatest "trainer of trainers" the game has ever seen. Pletcher, McLaughlin, Hennig, Maker and others have gone on to success. Those guys didn't get to where they are by watching a moron.

BTW, Going Wild looked great at SAR. He was second to Silver Wagon in a prep for the Forego. They skipped the Forego for an allowance and ran into Discreet Cat. He never had a "serious injury" just some of the same nagging issues that plague most race horses. He's a racehorse for crissakes. On the other thread folks are bemoainign how infrequently horses race and here Wayne's bashed for RACING his RACE HORSES!

blackthroatedwind 09-19-2006 10:08 AM

Hennig? You're not actually insinuating he's good....are you?

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
I was in Lukas' barn this summer and he had about 30 horses. He still has some for Mrs. Lewis including Simon Pure who won a race at SAR.
Those who know nothing of someone's business dealings should not profess knowledge they don't have.

I looked over every horse in the barn and saw many of them train and or race. They hardly looked abused.

DWL changed the business. He has proven to be the greatest "trainer of trainers" the game has ever seen. Pletcher, McLaughlin, Hennig, Maker and others have gone on to success. Those guys didn't get to where they are by watching a moron.

BTW, Going Wild looked great at SAR. He was second to Silver Wagon in a prep for the Forego. They skipped the Forego for an allowance and ran into Discreet Cat. He never had a "serious injury" just some of the same nagging issues that plague most race horses. He's a racehorse for crissakes. On the other thread folks are bemoainign how infrequently horses race and here Wayne's bashed for RACING his RACE HORSES!

As I've said before, none of those guys train anything like him. He hardly taught those guys to train. I'm not saying that they don't owe much of their success to him, quite to the contrary. Those guys made great contacts by working for Lukas. Not only that, but they learned a ton from Lukas about how to run an operation and about the whole business aspect of being a trainer. In terms of actual training methods, you won't find any of those guys doing anything similar to Wayne.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 10:28 AM

[quote=Linny]I was in Lukas' barn this summer and he had about 30 horses. He still has some for Mrs. Lewis including Simon Pure who won a race at SAR.
Those who know nothing of someone's business dealings should not profess knowledge they don't have.

I looked over every horse in the barn and saw many of them train and or race. They hardly looked abused.

Nobody is saying that his horses aren't well fed. I'm sure they look fine sitting in their stalls. They're not abused in that way. You have to look at the number of horses he has broken down. The numbers don't lie. Why don't you try calling some of the thoroughbred insurance companies out there. Tell them that you just bought a 2 year old and and you want to insure him. Then tell them that your trainer is Lukas and see what they say. You will see that you will have a hard time finding a company that will sell you insurance.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 11:03 AM

[quote=Dixie Porter]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Not ONLY can you not read, but you haven't got the slightest idea how to train a horse to get the most $ out of him. As far as your lame per cenatages on Allen's kid, it's to dumb for me to comment on.

BTW I have zero interest in DWL one way or the other.

You never have anything to say. You make a lot of snide comments but you you never post anything of any substance.

I have no idea if you're a smart guy or not. If you are a smart guy, nobody here will ever know it if you don't explain yourself. You say stuff like, "You don't know how to train a horse to get the most out of him."

That's not telling us anything. That's not giving us any information. If you don't think I know how to train to get the most out of a horse, then tell us what part of my thinking is wrong and tell us what the proper way to get the most out of a horse is.

You obviously had no explanation as to why Jerkens win percentage is higher when he gives his horses a break, so you simply called my percentages "lame".

If you think that anyone is going to be impressd with your knowledge by making snide remarks you are mistaken. If you really do have some knowledge, then post it. I'd be happy to hear what you have to say. Nobody is going to learn anything from your comments like "Your percentages are lame" or "You don't know how to get the most out of a horse".

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
Didn't Folklore win the Filly Juvie Champ last year?

Yep, she sure did...that was one heck of a nice filly. It is a shame she had to be retired...

Sightseek 09-19-2006 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
Oh that must have been why he lost by 15 lengths. Otherwise he would have been right there. LOL.

considering his past performances, yes he should have been:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/06whitney.pdf

Your earlier post:
"Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury."

Big effort? He performed that day the same as races prior to the rabbit, dumb jock and the gold cup performance. So are you implying that he was on something beforehand, went off in the Gold Cup and then was put back on for the Classic?

I think Pletcher made a mistake not starting FA sooner in the year. He never cited injury as the reason for not starting him in the spring, but the desire to have a fresh horse for the fall.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 11:16 AM

[quote=Dixie Porter]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Not ONLY can you not read, but you haven't got the slightest idea how to train a horse to get the most $ out of him. As far as your lame per cenatages on Allen's kid, it's to dumb for me to comment on.

BTW I have zero interest in DWL one way or the other.

You obviously are not a very good reader either. I never said that horses who sustain serious injuries will usually come back 100%. I said that if you stop on a horse before a problem gets too serious that they will often times come back 100%.

blackthroatedwind 09-19-2006 11:21 AM

[quote=Dixie Porter]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin



If you feel my opinions are weak read all my posts and get back to me. Most of the trolls have given up after 3 years. Kinda like "The Myth of Sisyphus" (Sp)

Oh yer a myth alright....a mythomaniac.

Cajungator26 09-19-2006 11:21 AM

[quote=Dixie Porter]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not on here to give lessons. You want to learn it's $1500 an hour.

Personally I like hangin out with Mike, Steve and Brooklynite. Takes me back to my yoot.

If you feel my opinions are weak read all my posts and get back to me. Most of the trolls have given up after 3 years. Kinda like "The Myth of Sisyphus" (Sp)

Don't you charge by the minute? (Couldn't resist.) :D

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
considering his past performances, yes he should have been:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/06whitney.pdf

Your earlier post:
"Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury."

Big effort? He performed that day the same as races prior to the rabbit, dumb jock and the gold cup performance. So are you implying that he was on something beforehand, went off in the Gold Cup and then was put back on for the Classic?

I think Pletcher made a mistake not starting FA sooner in the year. He never cited injury as the reason for not starting him in the spring, but the desire to have a fresh horse for the fall.

I agree with you that he was too close to a pretty fast pace that day. I think that could have cost him 3-4 lengths but not 15.

I wasn't implying that the horse was on something in any of his races. I was saying that he probably had a minor issue such as a puffy ankle or that type of thing. They probably didn't think it was bothering him so they had no reason to treat it before the JCGC. When he ran so bad, they realized that it was bothering him so they injected the ankle for the BC Classic. I'm not saying that this is definitely waht happened. I am saying that this type of thing happens all the time and it is likely that this is the type of thing that happened with FA.

Trainers will never tell you about this type of thing. You will never heara trainer in an interview say, "The horse ran better today because we injected his ankle, knee, etc."

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
considering his past performances, yes he should have been:

http://www.drf.com/row/pps/06whitney.pdf

Your earlier post:
"Who knows what they did to FA to get that big effort out of him in the BC Classic. He had just gotten beat by 15 lengths. If you have a horse with an injury and inject them to get one more race out of them, there is a good chance that they will not come back 100%. That is always the risk if you try to get one or two moe races out of a horse that is showing the beginning of a minor injury."

Big effort? He performed that day the same as races prior to the rabbit, dumb jock and the gold cup performance. So are you implying that he was on something beforehand, went off in the Gold Cup and then was put back on for the Classic?

I think Pletcher made a mistake not starting FA sooner in the year. He never cited injury as the reason for not starting him in the spring, but the desire to have a fresh horse for the fall.

Sorry for imposing, but I'm sure that there was an injury. Late starts back usually always equate to illness or injury. That is why he has been running so poorly all year. The JCGC performance last year coupled with the BC performance, the late start back, and the poor racing performances this year are all indicators that something went amiss with FA. It's a shame too...

FA has had plenty of time to come back into form this year. Don't you think the reason that he hasn't is because of an injury? In this case, it is most likely a pretty significant injury, because most horses are running with minor ailments anyway and still manage to perform well. His performances have been horrible this year, except for the very first one. They are such fragile creatures...

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
I agree with you that he was too close to a pretty fast pace that day. I think that could have cost him 3-4 lengths but not 15.

I wasn't implying that the horse was on something in any of his races. I was saying that he probably had a minor issue such as a puffy ankle or that type of thing. They probably didn't think it was bothering him so they had no reason to treat it before the JCGC. When he ran so bad, they realized that it was bothering him so they injected the ankle for the BC Classic. I'm not saying that this is definitely waht happened. I am saying that this type of thing happens all the time and it is likely that this is the type of thing that happened with FA.

Trainers will never tell you about this type of thing. You will never heara trainer in an interview say, "The horse ran better today because we injected his ankle, knee, etc."

Rupert, are you talking about the joint injections that we most likely give to show horses too? Those are perfectly legal in racing aren't they? They have made a tremendous difference in some of the horses that I have ridden. Our vet usually gives them Legend Joint Injections.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 11:33 AM

[quote=Dixie Porter]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not on here to give lessons. You want to learn it's $1500 an hour.

Personally I like hangin out with Mike, Steve and Brooklynite. Takes me back to my yoot.

If you feel my opinions are weak read all my posts and get back to me. Most of the trolls have given up after 3 years. Kinda like "The Myth of Sisyphus" (Sp)

You don't sound very intelligent when you knock a person't post if you don't explain yourself. It's pointless.

There is nothing wrong with knocking a post but there is a prpoer way to do it. If you're going to disagree with a person, you should way, "I think you are wrong. Here is why." And then you explain why they are wrong. You're not adding anything to a discussion by saying "that's stupid" or "you're wrong" or that type of thing if you don't explain yourself. You need to tell a person why their comment was stupid or why it was wrong. Otherwise, your comments are empty and are a waste of our time.

DiscreetCat=Monster 09-19-2006 11:36 AM

Padua current stable

Electrify (03 c) Delaware Township - Raspberry Eggcream
Formal Appeal (03 c) Successful Appeal-Sweetbabe
Gleaming Elegance, (03 f) High Yield-Juliet's Way
Magical Baby, (04 f) Forestry-Absolute Magic
Market Share, (04 c) Sky Classic-Ma Petite Mousse
Philanderer, (04 c) Yes It's True-I'll Bedazzled
Ultimat Perfection, (04 f) Tiznow-Western Delight
War Cry, (02 c) Unbridled-Words of War
Yes It's Time, (04 c) Yes It's True-Taunting

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Rupert, are you talking about the joint injections that we most likely give to show horses too? Those are perfectly legal in racing aren't they? They have made a tremendous difference in some of the horses that I have ridden. Our vet usually gives them Legend Joint Injections.

Injecting an ankle or joint is perfectly legal.

Assttodixie 09-19-2006 11:41 AM

[quote=Rupert Pupkin]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

You don't sound very intelligent when you knock a person't post if you don't explain yourself. It's pointless.

There is nothing wrong with knocking a post but there is a prpoer way to do it. If you're going to disagree with a person, you should way, "I think you are wrong. Here is why." And then you explain why they are wrong. You're not adding anything to a discussion by saying "that's stupid" or "you're wrong" or that type of thing if you don't explain yourself. You need to tell a person why their comment was stupid or why it was wrong. Otherwise, your comments are empty and are a waste of our time.

Waste of time? Waste of time? Do you realize to whom you are referring? You dont talk to the boss that way! No one talks to the boss that way!!!

Do you realize that my boss Dixie trained under Chuck Norris after he beat chuck in a round of poker?

Do you realize that my boss Dixie has forgotten more about horses than you will ever know? He learned from the great BA jones.

Now apologize before i let dixie go and he gives you an 80 year old karate chop on the side of your head.

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
Injecting an ankle or joint is perfectly legal.

Ok thanks, I figured so, but I didn't know for sure. The ones we use take about two weeks to fully kick in, and the horses that are having moderate to severe problems get injected about every six months. They really work though especially for about a month and a half after you administer them.

Sightseek 09-19-2006 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Sorry for imposing, but I'm sure that there was an injury. Late starts back usually always equate to illness or injury. That is why he has been running so poorly all year. The JCGC performance last year coupled with the BC performance, the late start back, and the poor racing performances this year are all indicators that something went amiss with FA. It's a shame too...

FA has had plenty of time to come back into form this year. Don't you think the reason that he hasn't is because of an injury? In this case, it is most likely a pretty significant injury, because most horses are running with minor ailments anyway and still manage to perform well. His performances have been horrible this year, except for the very first one. They are such fragile creatures...

Sorry, but you could convince me that Santa Claus was real before you could ever convince me that trainers don't start their horses late because of the Breeder's Cup.

A horse running better as a 4 year old is not a golden rule either.

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
Sorry, but you could convince me that Santa Claus was real before you could ever convince me that trainers don't start their horses late because of the Breeder's Cup.

A horse running better as a 4 year old is not a golden rule either.

Some trainers do start their horses late, and some horses are better as three year olds than four year olds. However, most trainers only start horses back late because they don't have a choice due to an illness or injury. FA won his first start back very nicely, and lost all form from there. The horse is not the same horse, and it's not because he doesn't have the talent...

Sightseek 09-19-2006 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
Some trainers do start their horses late, and some horses are better as three year olds than four year olds. However, most trainers only start horses back late because they don't have a choice due to an illness or injury. FA won his first start back very nicely, and lost all form from there. The horse is not the same horse, and it's not because he doesn't have the talent...

I like Flower Alley, but I think some people had their rosy tinted glasses on in regards to his talent, but you are correct he doesn't show interest in his races (but is training fine).

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sightseek
I like Flower Alley, but I think some people had their rosy tinted glasses on in regards to his talent, but you are correct he doesn't show interest in his races (but is training fine).

The BCC made me a believer in the horse. I think that some people overrated him a bit, but I do believe that he was a talented horse that was cetainly capable of finishing in the top three in all of his races this year, which he obviously did not do. I hope he is okay. Look at what happened to LITF...

Sightseek 09-19-2006 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckyrosesinmay
The BCC made me a believer in the horse. I think that some people overrated him a bit, but I do believe that he was a talented horse that was cetainly capable of finishing in the top three in all of his races this year, which he obviously did not do. I hope he is okay. Look at what happened to LITF...

Which is what I think his connections thought too and gambled they could grab the Eclipse Award in a Ghostzapperesque way (minus the crazy speed). Following the Classic there wasn't a Invasor, Lava Man or Sun King that looked really good at the moment...

Linny 09-19-2006 01:25 PM

Todd said last year, right after the BCC that FA would make a late start and point for the '06 BCC. It appears to me that they had that plan. A horse with a significant injury doesn't run BSF's in the 90's as FA did in the Whitney. He's lost some speed and not replaced it with closing kick.
As for the JCGC last year, once he was fried in a pace duel with his own rabbit (why'd Todd do that again?) Johnny just eased him up. he knew that the big race was 4 (3?) weeks away. The margin could have been 4 lengths or 40, the result was the same. He was not persevered with.

I don't know what his problem is this year but I doubt he has some terrible injury. They have gone over him with a fine toothed comb and found nothing.

kentuckyrosesinmay 09-19-2006 01:36 PM

Believe what you want to, but logic tells me that when a horse is as good as FA was last year, and falls out of form as he did this year, it means that they are being bothered by something such as an injury. I have seen it happen time and time again. I am always leary of horses making late starts back for this reason. My opinion won't change unless a valid, believable excuse is made to explain Flower Alley's poor performances. The injury doesn't have to be a terrible injury for it to be affecting his races negatively. It could even be a mild to moderate injury. When I referred to a 'significant' injury earlier, I meant one that was affecting his performances in races, which is certainly significant if you have one that is as nice as Flower Alley.

Rupert Pupkin 09-19-2006 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
Todd said last year, right after the BCC that FA would make a late start and point for the '06 BCC. It appears to me that they had that plan. A horse with a significant injury doesn't run BSF's in the 90's as FA did in the Whitney. He's lost some speed and not replaced it with closing kick.
As for the JCGC last year, once he was fried in a pace duel with his own rabbit (why'd Todd do that again?) Johnny just eased him up. he knew that the big race was 4 (3?) weeks away. The margin could have been 4 lengths or 40, the result was the same. He was not persevered with.

I don't know what his problem is this year but I doubt he has some terrible injury. They have gone over him with a fine toothed comb and found nothing.

First of all, it it totally untrue that horses with serious problems don't run fast. Some of the sorest and most unsound horses out there run 6 furlongs in 1:08 3/5. You'd be shocked at how may horses out there run great with significant injuries. The horses won't last for very long, but you often times don't know how many races they will last for. Some of these claiming horses that have tendons are ticking time-bombs. They keep on winning but any day will be their last day. They may have 1 race left in them or they may have five or six. That's why sometimes you will see one of these horses win a few in a row at the same class level and nobody claims him. People are afraid that the horse will never be able to run again and yet the horse may win another 4 in a row.

Speaking of horses running fast with serious injuries, look at Afleet Alex. He won the Belmont with a hairline fracture.

With regard to Flower Alley, you don't know that they've gone over him with a fine-tooth comb and found nothing. I would bet serious money that they know exactly what's wrong with him. Just because they aren't saying it publicly, it doesn't mean that there is no problem or that they don't know what the problem is.

With reagrd to Flower Alley in the JCGC last year, he was done at the 3/8 pole. If he just got a little tired from the fast pace, he would have at least fought until the 1/8th or the 1/16th pole. Borrego was 6 lengths by him before they even hit the 1/8th pole. There is no way that FA could have finished within 4 lengths of Borrego. you're just guessing that he ran fine and got a little tired and that JV wrapped on him. You should watch the replay before you assume that.

Sightseek 09-19-2006 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin
Speaking of horses running fast with serious injuries, look at Afleet Alex. He won the Belmont with a hairline fracture.

No one knows when he had it, all they can do is speculate.

Linny 09-19-2006 01:55 PM

As for the JCGC, my point was that the margin of loss was a product of the early pace and JV knowing that he wasn't a contender at the 3/8 pole. He wrapped up. I don't think he could have been within 4 lenths, Borrego ate him up. The point was that the margin itself was meaningless. He proved it by running very well in the BCC.

I also find it hard to believe that if Todd knew after the Whitney that something was seriously wrong with his "HOY candidate" that he'd run back in the Woodward. You do that sort of thing with the claiming stock you refer to not the horse that you think could still get you an Eclipse. I'm sure that Melnyk is trying to sell FA for stud and any subsequent poor efforts with no announced reason cuts the price. If they know he has a particular serious issue they'd say so (to own the excuse) and not run him back. You don't wiat til the price is cut again and again by poor efforts, then announce why he ran so bad.

I know most of the lesser horses (and many of the top horses) have issues to one degree or another. They all have something that's not right. lesser stock gets patched up and sent over. Horses with residual stud value are handled with kid gloves.

Sightseek 09-19-2006 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linny
As for the JCGC, my point was that the margin of loss was a product of the early pace and JV knowing that he want a contender at the 3/8 pole. He wrapped up. I don't think he could have been within 4 lenths, Borrego ate him up. The point was that the margin itself was meaningless. He proved it by running very well in the BCC.

I also find it hard to believe that if Todd knew after the Whitney that something was seriously wrong with his "HOY candidate" that he'd run back in the Woodward. You do that sort of thing with the claiming stock you refer to not the horse that you think could still get you an Eclipse. I'm sure that Melnyk is trying to sell FA for stud and any subsequent poor efforts with no announced reason cuts the price. If they know he has a particular serious issue they'd say so (to own the excuse) and not run him back. You don't wiat til the price is cut again and again by poor efforts, then announce why he ran so bad.

I know most of the lesser horses (and many of the top horses) have issues to one degree or another. They all have something that's not right. lesser stock gets patched up and sent over. Horses with residual stud value are handled with kid gloves.

I agree, good points.

Bold Reasoning 09-19-2006 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOSE=GLUE
I was just listening to this radio show on the internet and they were talking about James Macinvale, and somehow Lukas name came up because he did the same thing to Satish Sanan the owner of Padua Stables caught Lukas robbing him. Thats why he named the horse Baffert trained to win the BC Juvenile VINDICATION. Man what goes around comes around. Thats why Lukas couldn't get anymore owners he was licking the gift horse in the mouth.

I thought Vindication was named such because Lukas told Sanan that the colt would never race, so why buy him. Sanan was in love with the horse, so he bought him and sent him to Baffert. The brilliant animal went undefeated before being injured. He was then rushed to stud because his immortal sire had recently died and the young Slew was needed to carry on the line. Ironically, it was in Baffert's care and not the Coach's that he was injured.

SniperSB23 09-19-2006 02:18 PM

The BC Classic last year was a dreadfully slow race with a bunch of terrible horses outside of Saint Liam. Saint Liam got stuck with a horrible post and wanted nothing to do with ten furlongs but the field was so terrible he won anyways. On many figures Flower Alley ran just as fast in the Whitney as the BC Classic, the figures just got adjusted up since they couldn't give that low of a figure to the BC Classic. The Woodward is the first race that Flower Alley didn't run his normal race and it appears that going all out in the Whitney and getting his butt kicked may have killed off his interest in racing.

Gander 09-19-2006 02:25 PM

I'm glad to see that HOY canindate was in quotes. This horse was terribly overrated off of 2 good (but neither great) races from last year. If this horse was trained by anyone else than Pletcher, he would have been considered an average horse.


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