What Tiara? The Acorn, Mother Goose and CCA Oaks. Or the other one that NYRA promoted consisting of the Mother Goose, CCA Oaks and Alabama?

I'm not suggesting that they do away with the CCA Oaks. I'm just saying that its recent renewals do not justify Grade I status.

Based upon the quality of the older horse division in the US the last 2 years, no 3 and up race should be a Grade 1. The grading system is a huge waste of time and misleading anyway.

Why the retards that run the sport havent come up with a fillies version of the TC is beyond me. They could use the KY Oaks, Mother Goose and Alabama since MD cant be counted on to run a race not named the Preakness in consecutive years. Tie them together with some sponsor/bonus and televise them on Bravo. Just as NYRA needs to work a little harder to keep the Travers as the 4th "classic". If Rachel Alexander runs vs MTB and SB with all three TC race winners you have a huge race. No RA? It is just another overpriced grade 1 without the best horses. While SS and Bernardini were arguably the top three year olds the year they won it, the fields behind them weren't great and last year was close, it wasnt the top horses.

Just a thought, what in the world were Summer Bird and Mine that Birds connections think when they skipped the Jim Dandy in favor of obviously worse spots for their horses?

The Mine That Bird that ran at Mountaineer on Saturday wasn't contending in what turned out a surprisingly swiftly run Jim Dandy.

Perhaps he wouldnt but it was a better spot for him on paper and he would have a race over the track and a lot less shipping. He wouldnt have had the damned if you do/damned if you dont situation that he faced in WV.

The WVA Derby had to seem like the path of least resistance weeks ago - so it's real hindsight stuff.

How about a horse like Convocation - who beat only a single horse in the Jim Dandy but will probably get a higher Beyer than anyone in the WVA Derby - and could have got into the WVA Derby at 111lbs.

What about Gone Astray losing the 75K stake at Saratoga today - his figure will be identical to the WVA Derby winner - and he was hung three or four wide on both turns today at 118lbs - while able to get in to the WVA Derby at 111lbs. I'm sure his sheet number will come back way faster than the WVA Derby winner.

Hard to blame Jimmy Jerkens and Shug for not landing in the right spot - because it was no cinch Mine That Bird would run a Sunland Park race and Big Drama would be totally a miss.

looking at the chart and the using the winner of the governors cup as a gage, who had an uncontested lead on a speed track, who can run low triple digits than it looks like the WV is about a 92?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ had to figure into the initial race selection for both :zz: with the 1.25M Haskell and the 750k WVD vs 500k for JD.
Either of the two probably had, as you point out, a better chance of winning the JD over Kensai who appears to be a "sprinter type".

Maybe they thought Quality Road was going to show up in the Dandy.:)

Mine That Bird's connections correctly thought it would be easier pickings for a higher purse in the West Virginia Derby. That got that part right, but they didn't take into account there would be no pace. They probably thought at least one local speedball with distance limitations would show up hoping to hang on for third-place money, and that local would keep Big Drama honest.

As for Summer Bird, his connections want to stay in contention for an Eclipse and figured it was a win-win situation by running in the Haskell. If he won, he just beat the now horse. If he ran second to the filly, who could hold it against him since she is a superhorse, and besides, he outfinished every colt in the race.

and I would say Summer Bird is right in it for the Eclipse, I dont see MTB winning anything again this season.

i got to think summer birds connections were hoping for a dry, fast track. he was on the pace and i think they had no choice but to stay close(he ran a fine race). as for mine that bird, i agree, that race may have been a bad choice. he probably should of raced in the jim dandy. i knew he would have trouble catching horses on that track. as for kensei, i don't think hes a sprinter. he just won the dwyer and jim dandy easily, when they stretched him out. why would people think hes a sprinter when he has run way better in the longer races. he could not win graded stakes sprinting. stretched out hes 2 for 2.

Summer Birds connections didn't sound so positive about The Travers anymore. It went from a "that is our goal" to "we'll take a look at it".
Which is code for "If RA is running, see ya'all at the Penn Derby".

I know it is hindsight but the WV derby is hardly the best way to win the Travers. Which I guess makes the fact that we dont have a coherent national racing schedule even more sad.

Not even if he goes to Albuquerque??

How long can Chip Woolley Jr. drive Mine that Bird around behind his pickup? He has to give up and go home some time. Doesn't he have other horses to tend to in New Mexico?

maybe than, though he sure did not earlier this year.

this is why i try not to compare horses that are still running with those that retired years ago-you know how those from the past finished up, as well as their competition. rachel and company are still a work in progress, and it'll be a few years before we know what their true spot will be.
by the same token, i can't recall the last horse i saw that won with such aplomb in top races vs the best of its peers. rachel doesn't just win, much of the time it's an annihilation-and as i used to read back when, if a horse hasn't got competition they still have the clock. rachel seems otherwordly right now-she's certainly the best 3 yo this year by a wide margin. historically? we need to be patient on that score.

a great horse is a horse that transcends time-a horse that's used as a measuring stick for horses that come later. if in ten, twenty years, people say 'he/she's the best since rachel' then you'll know she was great because she stood the ultimate test-'what have you done lately?' the truly special ones remain in the memory.

She hasn't beaten Quality Road yet! Track record at Saratoga pretty much in hand. I thought she might scare away the competition in the Travers, but it might shape up even better than I hoped.

Mountaineer is a quirky track, I never agreed or understood why they chose that race for Mine That Bird if they wanted to race to the horse's strengths. For all this horse has going or not going for him in terms of musical jockies and an unknown B track Trainer, it is remarkable what he has accomplished this year.

Last night, I doubted that she'd contest the Travers. After watching Quality Road's race this afternoon, I feel even more strongly that she won't contest the Travers.

Unfortunately for her, as good as she's been, and I think she's great, she hasn't been able to face the best of her peers. I Want Revenge, Quality Road, The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned....all out before she could face them.

it's conjecture that they're the best. she's stood the tests thrown at her, they didn't. i'm certainly not going to hold it against her that she hasn't faced horses that may, or may not, have had success in the spring classics. she's beaten everyone she's faced, handily, all year.

I don't hold it against her either and I don't think the results would have been any different had they been around. But I don't think you'd find anyone that would disagree that she hasn't faced the best of her generation.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that she would be handling The Pamplemousse and old Fashioned....

she is the best of her generation. i want revenge looked average until his two unreal ny races. old fashioned didn't look as good as distances increased. the pamplemousse is hard to quantify...but winning big on synthetics doesn't mean he's the best of his generation-he never faced the best, so how can you give him that moniker? she's faced everything that came at her, and with amazing ease for the most part. i could argue that quality road won the amsterdam in fast time due to the track-i doubt you could say the same for rachel and her fast time in the haskell.

I'm not sure what's being lost in this convo. I know she is the best of this class but if you happen to think that the next best horses in the class are Mine That Bird, Summer Bird, Munnings, Big Drama, and Musket Man, you'd be in the huge minority. I think the overwhelming majority would agree that the next best horses in this year's class after Rachel would include Quality Road, Dunkirk, I Want Revenge, The Pamplemousse, and Old Fashioned before they'd include the ones she has beaten. I'll say it again, I don't think she'd have any more problems with those that she hasn't faced than she has had with those that she has but I think the general consensus would say that she hasn't faced the best of her generation.