Derby Trail Forums - Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending

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- - Pletcher BC positive; Hearing pending (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26576)

AeWingnut

12-06-2008 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont remember

Jon Court wins a race for you and you don't remember?

I remember that time he won for me and I had to sign for a $2k exacta at Oaklawn :D

he was #8 :o

I wonder why he isn't doing so well. The guy used to bring in everything and anything so long as he wasn't up against Pat Day :mad:

Cannon Shell

12-06-2008 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

He won a few for me, I know he won a race at CD on the grass on Silent Emotion. I dont remember who rode her when she won the stake at KD. Maybe Joe Johnson? I know he won a stake there for me on Karly's Harley. As a matter of fact I think they both won the same meet.

philcski

12-06-2008 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dont make assumptions about who is and isnt "juicing". You would be surprised by some of the names that never appear in the papers and seemingly get a pass....

Yeah, agreed... which is why I hedged myself later and said "nobody should get a free pass"...

CSC	12-06-2008 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I have no other evidence but something certainly stinks. Horses typically win when they get favorable trips. Horses winning when they don't get the best trip (or even when they get the worst trip) are a cause for a red flag.

I like to call it the 'energizer bunny' effect, they keep going and going and going...ect...It's important to say we are speculating here, but something didn't quite add up on how his horses ran like alkaline batteries.

CSC	12-06-2008 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The only turf stake i won at CD was the Cardinal and Court was aleady in CA. He did ride Silent Emotion who may have won one of those overnight stakes.

Now I am wracking my brain, it wasn't Silent Emotion that I know, it was before that, Court was the rider and the horse wired the field in a turf route race. I think it paid 9-1, now I don't know why I remember those details but not the horse.

philcski

12-06-2008 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Here's my take on this from a race watching perspective.

In the glory days, Pletcher horses would win, even though, in most cases, they were getting the worst trips, as WIDE Johnny V was up (and giving his patented, wide, no cover, premature trips). You'd typically see JV beating on these horses on the turn and they'd still have enough to draw in the stretch.
Not happening any longer; these horses are not winning with JV up and, interestingly, in some cases, they'll win with another jock and a better trip.

I have no other evidence but something certainly stinks. Horses typically win when they get favorable trips. Horses winning when they don't get the best trip (or even when they get the worst trip) are a cause for a red flag. The dude was a juicer. No doubt about it. They took his drugs away and he's firing blanks (relative to past years). Having been around in the Oscar and Ferraiola , etc. eras, I'd like to think that I can spot juicers.

Very much agree with this

The Fleet Indian "upgrade" was what concerned me the most.

Cannon Shell

12-06-2008 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

No Deadline maybe?

Riot	12-07-2008 12:14 AM

RMTC disbanded

The RMTC has disbanded. There is no need for it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, and years of tedious research, are saved.

Horseplayers on the internet will now officially decide which trainers are juicers, and which horses have been doped.

Voting will be done fans, from their home computers via a soon-to-be-announced website.

Voting will close the Monday after a weekend of racing, at midnight.

Trainer suspensions will be announced by noon every Tuesday.

docicu3

12-07-2008 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

Used to be that at the top of the stretch a TAP horse would look other horses in the eye and never back off they all had unbelievable saying power now they don't win even at rates it seems thet should....it's the owners that will drive the game when they take all the horses away.

Riot	12-07-2008 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

:rolleyes:
Since you seem so sure, can you explain what has happened to Pletcher's stable? As has been mentioned here, by astute players, Pletcher's horses seemed to have multiple gears. Suddenly, they don't anymore. I'm not suggesting anything, but since you seem so sure about the point you are poorly making, what has changed exactly?

Sorry. Don't buy the premise, can't contribute to the bit.

the_fat_man

12-07-2008 02:37 PM

Got to give credit where it's due.

Pletcher has won 2 turf races today:

Tale of a Lady at CRC off an 8 MONTH layoff

and

Il Girasole at HOL off a 15 MONTH layoff

Any way you cut it, that's good training.

Indian Charlie

12-07-2008 03:45 PM

Clearly the reason for these stats is that he had English Channel in his barn those years, but not this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

He's always been a super trainer off the bench. I believe he got a turf horse to dead heat a few days back at Aqueduct off another big layoff. By no means am I saying Pletcher can't train. He's a very good trainer. But, something is up in the barn.

Here's some interesting stats I read on another board. In terms of grade 1 wins. Pletcher had

10 in 2005
17 in 2006
17 in 2007
3 in 2008

Grade 1 wins in New York for Pletcher

7 in 2005
11 in 2006
8 in 2007
0 in 2008

Yeah, it's business as usual. :rolleyes:

CSC	12-07-2008 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No Deadline maybe?

I don't think so, it's okay I've given up, I tried a google search to no avail. I remember making a few dollars that day, thanks to that win. The cheque's in the mail, thanks.

sumitas

12-07-2008 04:40 PM

Racing needs to keep up the momentum for dope testing . You can see it's levelling the playing field, as one would expect .

AeWingnut

12-07-2008 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

Racing needs to keep up the momentum for dope testing . You can see it's levelling the playing field, as one would expect .

I think we have a positive

Kasept

12-07-2008 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumitas

Racing needs to keep up the momentum for dope testing . You can see it's levelling the playing field, as one would expect .

:confused: Where has the playing field been leveled exactly?

Cannon Shell

12-07-2008 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

:confused: Where has the playing field been leveled exactly?

Yankee Stadium

herkhorse

12-07-2008 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yankee Stadium

:tro:

sumitas

12-07-2008 06:39 PM

I don't think Curlin or Big Brown were as effective after being removed from the steroids . Pletcher's record indicates the pressure is on him to stay clean . If racing ever gets on top of the doping it will level the playing field . Maybe that's a better way to put it .

pgardn

12-07-2008 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yankee Stadium

You need to write for Letterman.
Dave is not having fun anymore.
His material is unexciting... for him.

GPK	12-07-2008 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Clearly the reason for these stats is that he had English Channel in his barn those years, but not this one.

:tro: :tro: :tro:

Riot	12-07-2008 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Thought so.

Oh, please. You think most of what has been said on here regarding Pletcher's record and horses is "astute"?

I think most of it has the depth of considered analysis consistent with the average high-school student.

And the only thing you guys can come up with for a change in trainer performance over a few years is drugs?

Excuse me while I split a gut pealing over with laughter :p

Cannon Shell

12-07-2008 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgardn

You need to write for Letterman.
Dave is not having fun anymore.
His material is unexciting... for him.

I need a good straight man like Sumitas and Kasept throwing me lines

Indian Charlie

12-07-2008 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I need a good straight man like Sumitas and Kasept throwing me lines

How about Spencer?

GPK	12-07-2008 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

How about Spencer?

I laughed

Indian Charlie

12-07-2008 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Interesting reading comprehension you have there. What I said was the people making the arguements were astute players. But I guess twisting words when you have no real arguement works also.

I'll ask again, what do you think the cause of the sudden drop off is? Did you happen to see the data I provided concerning Pletcher's grade 1 wins the last few years? How do you explain that? Bad luck? Not enough horses?

Pletchers downfall started right about when Presque Isle opened up, right?

Coincidence??????

I think this makes a lot of sense Riot!

CSC	12-07-2008 09:11 PM

For the record Todd Pletcher has already been suspended for 45 days by N.Y stewards for one of his horse's testing positive for mepivacaine, an anesthetic that has "a high potential to affect performance." in a race he won at Saratoga in 2004. Biancone, Dutrow, Lake and Asmussen are others that have all served notable suspensions(30 days to 1 year). I'll leave it up to each and every individual here to come up with their own conclusions who juices and who doesn't.

Indian Charlie

12-07-2008 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

That's just mean and crazy talk man!

Until TP comes out and announces to the world that he is a juicer, I refuse to believe that it's even possible!

I refuse!!

No! No! No! No! NO!

Lalalalalalalala. I can't hearrrr youuuu!

Riot	12-08-2008 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I guess you could just re-read my previous post.

Riot	12-08-2008 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

But the tiny level found in Pletcher's horse wasn't enough to be able to affect performance. Today that same level is an allowable level under NY racing rules. See post 57.

Todd Pletcher could possibly be the biggest juicer in the business. But, as the guy has a completely inconsequential drug record to date, I'll reserve awarding him that title until he earns it.

Other trainers are currently far, far more deserving.

Indian Charlie

12-08-2008 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot

I guess you could just re-read my previous post.

I just did and now I have a sudden urge to bet every offspring of Giant's Causeway.

Thanks.

brianwspencer

12-08-2008 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

How about Spencer?

I laughed.

OOOOOOOOOO

Kasept

12-08-2008 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I just did and now I have a sudden urge to bet every offspring of Giant's Causeway.

Thanks.

Golf clap..

philcski

12-08-2008 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So you think the huge drop off in grade 1 wins this year is just a coincidence?

Since the number of G1's is a limited sample size, you can argue that part of it is coincidence but I think his overall statistics (graded stakes, maiden, anything) is definitely NOT coincidence.

Cannon Shell

12-08-2008 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

So you think the huge drop off in grade 1 wins this year is just a coincidence?

While I generally agree that Pletchers horses seem to be mortal once again the graded wins numbers are pretty circumstantial. I have often said here that judging "juicers" on the times they are caught is not really that accurate of a measure. A really good burgler who doesnt get caught is still a criminal.

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