I love the always solution-oriented folks who preach about how the sport doesn't need fans, but gamblers.

Well, how the **** are we gonna get gamblers? You're not taking any gamblers away from the casinos, online poker, or anything like that. It's not happening.

We get gamblers by creating new fans, many of whom slowly evolve into gamblers or a combination of the two. That's what happened to me, and I'm pretty sure that's what happened to most of you as well.

There's no way to create horseplayers. You have to create fans first.

You don't think that bringing racing to them(having it on tv at home on channels like TVG) is a lot easier than bringing them to the races? Bringing racing to them will certainly make new fans a lot quicker than trying to convince someone to go to Aqueduct for the first time.

yeah, I think you do have to be fan to bet horse racing. It's really confusing trying to read a program if you don't know what you are looking at. So many different variable that you don't see with other betting propositions.

I can tell you from personal experience that trying to get a non horse person to watch TVG is impossible--they just don't grasp it. Now, the national coverage is different but is too far and few between...

Racetracks are great in the morning but terrible during the races. TV is much better. In ten years everyone will have High Definition TV, which will help the game a bit. Racing on HDTV is incredible.

No, I don't. You have to bring the horses to them. You have to have a product to market. What's the product now? "Come see Horse X run once every three months then go breed more horses made out of glass"?

If I know nothing about the horses (jury's still out on that one), what's making me put on TVG?

Something about the sport has to catch their eye, and it ain't "Check out all the Pick 3 wheels you can do!"

Good horses, good stories, horses who run often, compelling races. That's what attracts fans, and essentially, what attracts gamblers.

And if I'm wrong, give me an alternative solution. Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.

High Def TV will help.

Any non-comedians have any alternative solutions?

why...to get the butts in the seats...they need a better product at bad tracks...i still wont play 2nd tier tracks because they dont have purses that are attractive to good horses..people for the most part want some reliabilty in the fact that the horse they play wont stop or be stiffed ..though even at a good to exellent meet this happens..just no way im betting a 5,000 clmer where all the horses have injuries..and havent won in 2years....i know they have a place in the big picture of racing ..but thats the problem as i see it

Well, ask yourself this, who is a candidate to be a "new wagering fan at the racetrack?"

To me it's the 25-35 year-old single male.

Ask youself... What do I need to do to get 25-35 year-old single males into the track?

Answer: 21-30 year-old females.

Make every day Ladies Day. On the weekends, give them a betting voucher worth $5. I guarantee this will pay for itself.

Learn a little from the NBA. Been to an NBA game lately? Non-stop entertainment. I'm not sure you need an exhibition of several monkeys ****ing a football between every race, but a little music doesn't hurt. Check out Arlington on Fridays....

[quote=ateamstupid]Tell me what will create a horseplayer besides creating a fan first.QUOTE]

This, my friend, is the $100 billion question that all marketers within the industry are furiously searching for an answer to....this industry has a mountian of challenges and this is the biggest one....In the 21st century, there are so many alternative entertainment options or ways to spend your past time....time is also becoming more and more important and most people have less of it now days than ever before...it is a fast world and when people get a chance to slow down a little they are very selective in their hobbies and horse racing is usually down on the list from most....Also, there are so many other wagering opportunities for the more serious gamers, and the popularity of games like Texas Hold 'Em has basically stolen the spotlight when it comes to the young generation of gamblers....they want non-stop action and don't want to wait 30 minutes between races...Also, Poker is easier to understand for them and they see that as a huge comfortable....horse racing is such a hard sport to learn from a gaming standpoint and that is alos a deterent...there is just so much info and unknowns, and if you are not passionate to learn about it then you won't....the younger generation of gamblers aren't patient enough...they want to have action all the time with something they understand....

This game has a mountain of challenges, and unfortunately, it is just setup to derail itself in a lot of ways....

Here is my idea:

I have thought for years now that some track should attempt to run all of it's 9-10 races on a particular card in 2-2 1/2 hours so that they could shorten it up and treat it like a sporting event like going to a football game....people just don't have all day to sit around an OTB anymore or go to the races for 6 hours on a given afternoon....

You could have action going all the time....when it is 20 minutes to post for the 1st race it is 25 minutes to post for the 2nd and 30 minutes to post for the 3rd...then you take a small intermission to allow people to eat and use the rest room for 30 minutes and then start with the next 3 races in the same fashion and then have another short intermission and then finish strong with the last 3 races of the day and then the card is over for the day (you will have certain setbacks when horses breakdown, etc. that would delay time a little)..

I'm sure there would be opperational issues to iron out...you'd need two or three paddocks, you'd probably have to alternate between the garss and dirt courses each race so the other could get serviced while the other was racing, etc., you may need multiple gate crews and track crews (maybe), and I'm not sure if the jockeys would go for having to race three times in 15-20 minutes without much rest, but who knows...just thinking outside the box and throwing out ideas that could potentially help tracks save on-track attendance and handle...we need to make it more appealing to come to the track....the idea here would be to market going to the races like you would any other sporting event because essentially that is what you'd be doing...it would be like going to a football or basketball game time-wise and alos from the perspective that you would get non-stop action for the most part instead of having to wait for a half hour in between races (which is the biggest complaint I hear about attending teh races)...Also, the track would still get it's alotted amount of time to wager on all races without worrying about time to bet...you'd just teach the customer how to react and wager faster to get down and you would also have to bring the tellers to the bettors by foot or make it easiuer for them to wager so that they would not get shut out.....think about how cool it would be t bet a Pick 3 and be able to get the results from start to finish of three races in 15-20 minutes!!!...Pretty cool concept, huh?

I know this is 'out there' and really bucking tradition, but I really could see this working in certain markets.....it makes a lot of sense...

Anyway, I went off on a rant here, but I think about ways to improve this game ALL day long and it is a serious challenge...

[quote=Cunningham Racing]sounds good the tellers must attend a 6 month training course ..and none may be over the age of 40...lol

[quote=hoovesupsideyourhead]lol. At Calder, if you want to be a teller and are under the age of 70, both of your parents have to be working there already.

And if anyone doesn't think this isn't one of the big reasons for Del Mar, Saratoga and Keeneland being the only places to still get good attendance then they are kidding themselves.

100% right on, I met my wife at Keeneland, all of my buddies kept telling me to come to Keeneland, because of the great scenery. I hated horse racing back then, they told me I would have a good time, even if I hated the horses, so I went. Fell in love with the game back in 1998 and love it more every year. If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.


Horses like everything else has become event driven, big days, try going to the Breeders Cup at Lone Star, I was wishing there were about 20,000 less fans there that day and I had decent seats...

Just my two pennies worth...
Hire the hooters girls as tellers.

[quote=SentToStud]Just to set the record straight...that was Hooves quote and not mine....:D

[quote=Cunningham Racing]To further the record, this is mine, not hooves....

I can promise you that I haven't seen very many men at the track that I would want to date, lol. Most of them smoke like chimneys, which is a big turn off to me, and many of them are older and come with their wives. I'm probably one of the view single women at the track.....

I don't have a problem with the time between races because I enjoy spending a day at the track - it's a nice day out for me and Belmont is so beautiful. It also gives me time to check out the horses in the paddock......I have a hard time identifying with gamblers and with those who want fast action; I root for a horse, not the number (it's never "go number 2" for me, it's "go Bernardini, go whomever"). Also, I loved horses since I was a young girl....lots of girls do. I rode, took lessons and just started liking racing. I figure Walter Farley's Black Stallion helped me become a racing fan....boy, those books were good. Anyone ever read them? I think you can make racing work for those who already love horses; for those who are just in it to win money, I think they are a lost cause. When I was younger, I used to be so embarrassed about liking horse racing, because it was supposed to be an old man's sport, not a young girl's. Now, I don't care who knows.

Absolutely correct, ateam. The average serious gambler won't even consider horseracing for one reason. The track take is so high. A poker player has to give $2-$4 of the pot to the house when he wins. That's just a few percent. A blackjack player can play within 1/2 % of the house by spending 2 hours learning basic strategy. If she is motivated, she can learn to count cards and actually play with an edge over the house. (even idiot blackjack players find it hard to play with worse than 3% against them. A craps player can also play within 1% of the house. A sportsbettor has to overcome at most a 4.5% "take". Compare that to horseracing's 14-20% takes. Most educated sportsbettors think horseplayers are idiots. (very few sportsbettors understand that the fact that many horseplayers ARE idiots makes the game beatable, despite the high track take)

As ateam suggests, any significant surge of new horseplayers will have to be fed by a surge of fan interest.

--Dunbar

Please. Do you think 1 person in 1000 could tell you who Johannesburg and Officer were (or are). I don't think 1 person in 100 at the track could tell you.

Do you really think the fact that Johannesburg and Officer have been successful sires has any impact on the appeal of the sport to 99% of the people who bet? I would be extremely surprised to learn that the success of a stallion like Johannesburg or Officer would bring a single extra fan to horseracing or a single extra bettor to the track.

Maybe you are talking about excitement among owners. I am talking about excitement among bettors (both casual and serious) and among casual fans.

--Dunbar

New fans WILL GAMBLE. You are mired in the muck also. No creativity, no new ideas to attract fans. You have to market to successfully sell a product. The industry makes incredibly futile attempts to do this. Mike you are satisfied with the status quo. I am not. I was drawn to this game before you because of the athleticism of the animals. I dont think you have any idea how many people my age where captured by racing because of Secretariat. We were shown a great athlete. And now we go to the track to see other athletes, and at the same time are drawn to the beautiful complexities of gambling. This is what you dont get. You have to step outside what all your people mired in the game tell you. They like the status quo.

Are you telling me we cannot draw more fans that will gamble to the game? If so you are giving up and should not be on any committees trying to show the beautiful part of the sport. And that is very simply running. The rest will come along. This is what I believe. Maybe you have been around naysayers too long.

Naysayers? Quite the opposite. But I do believe that todays tracks are very hard to draw people to. Keeneland, Saratoga, and Del mar flourish with on track attendance while the rest suffer. Those three have beautiful grounds and a more relaxed atmosphere. The concrete dungeons elsewhere, well its hard to draw people to those places.
People love to bet football, its easy, and you can watch it on tv. You don't have to go to the stadium or a football simulcast place. The more houses that have horse racing tv channels on their systems, the better off we are.

< Please. Do you think 1 person in 1000 could tell you who Johannesburg and Officer were (or are). I don't think 1 person in 100 at the track could tell you. >

WHERE IN THE HELL DO YOU BET???...GOOD GOD, SIR...YES, YOU DON"T NEED TO BE PLAYING THE HORSES IF YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT SIRES AND PEDIGREES...HWO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK PEOPLE BET FIRST-TIME STRARTERS???....DO YOU PLAY HORSES AT AN ALASKAN OTB???

< I would be extremely surprised to learn that the success of a stallion like Johannesburg or Officer would bring a single extra fan to horseracing or a single extra bettor to the track. >

WHO GIVES ****?...THAT IS NOT MY POINT...THE REGULAR HORSE PLAYERS CARE, AT LEAST ALL THE ONES I KNOW, AND THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE LIFE BLOOD OF THIS SPORT.....WOW, DO YOU REALLY KEEP UP WITH THIS SPORT ANY, OR ARE YOU A CASUAL FAN? I CAN'T SEE TO WHERE ANYBODY COULD REALLY SAY THAT SIRES AND PEDIGREES DON'T MATTER AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY SAYING....SO, THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCE IN WHO THE SIRES ARE????...HUH?

< Maybe you are talking about excitement among owners. I am talking about excitement among bettors (both casual and serious) and among casual fans. >

WOW, THIS IS HORRENDOUS COMMENTARY!!!

Did I miss something? When did Cunningham forget how to quote people, and when did his caps lock button get stuck?

That is how I prefer to do it because that is how I have to do it on another board that I'm on...But nice smart-ass comment anyway...

Joel. I think you’re on to something here. The frequency of the action is important to make the game more exciting. I don’t know if it can be pulled off at one track, but if it could it would definitely be interesting. I had an idea that you might be able to pull it off in a simulcasting venue.
Here is my out of the box idea. The goal is to expand horse racing to the casino gaming crowd, to make it an easy exciting fast action game like those in casinos. But racing has a several problems in satisfying this market. Mainly it’s that people that are looking for the action don’t necessary want to explore and understand all the nuances. When they go to the track or OTB now, they’re greeted by a cacophony of screens and sounds, all disjointed and unconnected. Where do you start? Well you go buy a racing form with hundreds of pages of data you don’t understand then you start looking around to find what track you want to play. It’s a high hurdle to the casual gambler.

Here is my idea. I’m sure that many will point out numerous reasons why this won’t work but sometimes its best to go outside the box so to speak.
The product needs to be offered to these kinds of players in a different way. Instead of 30 different live feeds to follow, I propose that a sufficient number of race tracks adhere to a timing schedule that kicks off races at equal intervals that guarantee constant action, let’s just say it’s between 5 and 10 minutes between races. Then there is a single broadcast stream that rolls through the schedule one race at a time. This broadcast has a host that is entertaining, and informative and keeps the attention of the players. I’m picturing a theatre type setting, big High Def screens but the point is that there is one unique display or interface instead of numerous different layouts and announcers. The host is sort of like a bingo host who keeps the game moving along. Players could get a prepaid play card like at a casino then sit down in the theatre and get relatively rapid-fire action. New people could simply grab a simple program with M/L odds, name, jockey, PP# , silk colors and could play their numbers, names, colors, etc. Or they could get a regular program with PP’s.
Another thing I think would help would be to have more of the fractional wagers, dimes, quarters, etc. That way people could play longer on $20 or $40 bucks, I’m picturing the seniors that are camped out in front of the nickel slots.

Anyway the main points are, simple consistent game format (remove the clutter), delivered to the player in a fairly rapid and entertaining fashion, with some unique wagers offered. Also a very important item, reduce the takeout, that is a key.

Of course no one on this board would be interested in this, but it could be a way to tap into the money going into the casinos. The regular existing product would still be available for the die-hards like we have around here.

Just food for thought.

Thats the ole ateam I remember. Ready to correct.

Cunningham ole chap. You bet first time starters based on pedigree? Do you ever watch them work. I take work and movement much more serioulsy than genetic dice, which is what it is if you really know genetics.

I will mention three terms since I know you help with picking horses and love pedigree stuff. I cannot see how anyone in the business could not be humbled by these three terms.

1. Sexual reproduction (takes two to tango)
2. Indepedent assortment of chromosomes
3. Crossing over

Dont these send chills down your spine?

And one question that no one on the other board answered. Why, from a biological point of view, is it more likely that a mare has more influence on stamina in offspring that the male?

I bet very few races on a card. I won't bet first time starters unless I have inside information. I hope you are doing the same.

But that's not what I thought we were talking about. I thought we were talking about your opinion that a new hot sire is REALLY GOOD for horseracing. As if making the breed faster (and probably yet more fragile) is going to improve ANYTHING. (See? I know how to find my caps key, too.)

What I'm saying is that the average horseplayer won't give a damn whether there is another hot sire or not. And yes, I'm saying that if you poll the people in line at the betting window, only a small fraction will be able to say who the better sire is, Grindstone or Thunder Gulch. That's NOT the same as saying that pedigree isn't important in maiden races.

I suspect you hang out mostly with owners and others interested in the buying and selling of horses. These are not providing the bulk of the money at the betting windows.

Sorry you feel that way. Maybe the tracks can capture some of the excitement you perceive by holding a free cap giveaway with "Johannesburg" or "Officer" on the caps. I'm sure that would be immensely exciting to the bettors.

--Dunbar

Thank you, thank you..

NO self-respecting gambler gives a rat's rear about pedigree outside of first-time starters or first-time turf. Once they hit the track it doesn't mean a thing if their sire was a Dynaformer or a Transformer. You want to impeove business, do this:

On-Track
1. Reduce the time between races. Get it done in three hours. Only golf takes as long as an afternoon at the track.
2. Add entertainment. See my prior post. Or see what Stronach is trying at Gulf.
3. Give away a decent program with simplified pp's. The novices won't buy a Racinng Form and the regulars still will.
4. Reduce takeout. The Meadowlands does it (15% takeout on pick-3's.... best bet in all of racing).
5. Atract the 25-35 yo single males. See my prior post.
6. Make it easy for the guy with a family. Ample picnic areas, allow food and non-alcohol beverages in. Hell, at Philly Park they have grills!
7. Do more to fill the suites on weekdays with corporate customers.. I've taken three groups of 50-75 each to Arlington for business-related events. It's incredibly expensive. $75/pp+. Find a way to make it work for $40/pp, which is more in line with a golf outing. I know for a fact this kind of event creates new fans. I also know for a fact that 80% of Arlington's suites were empty these days.
8. Speaking of suites... do a giveaway every weekend racing day for a small suite event on another day. Do t-shirts really bring the new fan back?

Do racetracks even have marketing staff? If they do, they're doing a lousy job.

Off-track
1. Have reps from the on-line companies set up booths at the tracks to demo their product, answer questions, and get new accounts. Hell, I go into Home Depot and there's always some HD-partnered vendor there doing the same thing. Why the heck can't a racetrack do this?
2. Cross-promo between tracks and online services. Bet $100 on Churchill in a month online? You get two clubhouse seats and a $10 voucher for your next visit to CD.

I think its great to think out of the box and I don't believe that most of our sports top marketers do it well enough...(cough) NTRA..(cough, cough)...

It is absolutely RIDICULOUS for any tracks to be runnnig races on top of each other, especially the bigger circuits that really compete for market share (can't help it with all smaller tracks).....there is plenty of time to spread out between races to show all big tracks in a certain season without running them on top of each other, yet you see bonehead tracks making this mistake all of the time.....I remember working at Fair Grounds two winters ago and I noticed us going off as the same time that Gulfstream Park did in most of the races on the program and it killed our handle - not to mention it probably pissed off simo customers that were basically forced to choose whcih race they wanted to bet on so they could watch the race.....that is a mistake that should NEVER be made....it is bad for the tracks and it is bad for the fans....I agree...

The only real problem about your idea that I see (and its not a bad idea...no ideas are perfect), How do you give them the option to see the post parade to check horses physically to see if they are washed out. etc. if there is only one track to view at a time?

This makes no sense....OF COURSE I INCORPORATE PEDIGREES HEAVILY INTO MY HANDICAPPING, especially in baby races or turf races or first-timr route races, etc.....there are a MILLION angles where it is appropriate to incorporate pedigree and if you don't believe that then I am glad to be wagering against players like you because you are the ones I must be making money off of :D ...Thanks!

As for the foal being more reliant on the quality of the mare, well of course!...The mare has one foal a year and the stallion has up to 200 foals a year, especially if he shuttles......If there are 200 A.P. Indy foals running around from his '05 crop, it is easy to assume that one by Azeri as the dam would be better than the one by a cheaper mare, right?...Of course....the sire has substantial influence, but you can only do so much if you are the sire because the mare also has to be good....to BE a stallion you have to have been pretty damn good....not the same to be a broodmare.....Believe me, you'll never trump me on pedigrees nor influence me on your opinion that they are unimportant...won't happen...

Hello, Captain Obvious...You are officially not only in the building, but also now in the 21st century..Congratulations!...Give that man a prize, folks!

Tell me something we didn't already know...

Now that you have revealed the challenges that this game has LONG had (nothing new here and these are all well documented challenges), now you come up with the operational plan and marketing strategy to satisfy the resolution of these challenges...

..Oh, and when you do that, let me know, because I could probably get you a job as the COO at any major racing company in the world :D

question for you Joel...why do you think that the BEST racemares are often/usually a disappointment as broodmares while average racemares become blue hens?

Look Dunbar, the bottomline is that there IS a coorelation between breeding and a horse's production on the track and if you don't believe that then why do people pay $300,000 to breed to A.P. Indy? Come on dude...you know better than that....the savvy horse players understnd pedigree VERY well....ask any real serious and intelligent horseplayer...I'm sticking to my opinion (and most other serious horse players that I know opinions) that new stallions ARE important to the industry......I still don't understand what leg you think you have stand on in this argument???...Your basis is pretty weak IMO, but keep NOT factroing in pedigrees into your handicapping formula...PLEASE!!!...I love making money off of people like you :D

It is situational, but I will give you my opinion in general:

Law of numbers...great racemares had the luck of staying healthy to become great while there are many other well-bred blue hen race mares that had lite racing careers or never raced period....Who's to say that an unraced mare could not have been the next Azeri had she run?...Plus, the great racemares are so few of the breeding population that it is strictly a law of numbers thing...Additionally, many great racemares were "freaks" and there is nothing you can do to predict a freak..What I mean by freak is a filly like Xtra Heat who had no business being as fast or as good as she was with her pedigree...if you don't have a good family and you turn out to be a great racemare - it is no guaratee that you'll be a great broodmare.....Pedigree means a lot and there is such thing as a strong female breeding line...some pedigrees are "Racing" type pedigrees and some are "Breeding" type pedigrees - if that makes any sense to you.....there are many factors to this great phenomina...

Good question!

I feel pretty much the same way. I was just curious what your opinion was....

Hello, Captain Obvious...You are officially not only in the building, but also now in the 21st century..Congratulations!...Give that man a prize, folks!

Tell me something we didn't already know...

Now that you have revealed the challenges that this game has LONG had (nothing new here and these are all well documented challenges), now you come up with the operational plan and marketing strategy to satisfy the resolution of these challenges...

..Oh, and when you do that, let me know, because I could probably get you a job as the COO at any major racing company in the world


I am a new poster here, but why do some folks insist on talking down to others. I've been around this game for 40 years and it's amazing how much I've learned just reading this forum for the past month or so. It's a shame and I'm sure it inhibits others from posting. I'm not showing any malice towards anyone, simply making an observation.