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-   -   Saturday's Results (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16897)

hoovesupsideyourhead 09-23-2007 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmorioles
Well then what is the point of the job in the first place? Mouthpiece to the trainer?

yep...cant piss to many off otherwise a living doing the dream job is gone..cant ruffle feathers unless you are andy beyer or crist

ELA 09-23-2007 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SentToStud
He didn't look great but then again how good could he have looked against that crew, especially when the only colt with any chance to beat him ran the worst of all?

AGS didn't look anywhere near good IMO -- regardless of the field he was in against. As said by another poster, he could have looked good no matter who he was in against. Individually he didn't look good.

Let me preface this with the fact that I wasn't an AGS fan. However, I was looking for this colt to show me something in the Dwyer. By way of background, forgetting that this was his first start back since the Derby, I wanted to see something. Was this colt going to move/go forward, or was he going to just kind of be where he was. Top tier colt or face in the crowd? Anyway, I liked what I saw. Now, you talk about the Haskell, what was that all about? This colt stepped forward big time. Talk all you want about the race being set up for him, and so on. I am talking about this colt getting stronger, his stride, and he moved forward off the Dwyer.

Be that as it may, yesterday, he didn't look at ease. He didn't look settled, comfortable, and his stride didn't look anywhere near as good as it looked in the Haskell or the Dwyer (forget about the time). He won. He was supposed to win -- period. I just don't think he looked good at all doing what he did.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to own a barn full of this horse, and I've never owned one who showed up to the dances that he's shown up for. But this is not about jealousy or ego either.

Eric

philcski 09-23-2007 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SentToStud
Well, cmorioles proclaims a day later he was obviously the worst horse going in. You agree? No big deal and congrats if you did.

If you saw this before the race and bet the right way, you got paid pretty good as the tri paid $65. Keying AGS over all ex-Sightseeing turned a 1/5 horse into 9/2 or so.

Here were the exacta prices with 1 MTP:

2-1 $4
2-3 $12
2-4 $23
2-5 $10

Let's look at it a different way... would you have taken even money on Sightseeing to beat the other 3? My personal feeling was NO WAY. You didn't have to have much handicapping insight or genius, just read and interpret what the board had. A $12 exacta doesn't sound all that great... but when it's the "most likely result" it's the same as betting a 5-1 shot to win.

Redboard disclaimer:
I played my normal win bet on the 2-3 combination and 2/3 of one on 2-4. The effective return on the race was about 7/2 for simply not liking Sightseeing. Didn't play the tri but a $65 return was more than generous.

ex-specialist 09-23-2007 11:43 PM

You guys have left the reservation here, what's next beret posts?
My favorite things about the TAP stuff is there is no "re-break" as has been discussed. That horse someone else brought up earlier, from Gulfstream, pretty much describes his whole Gulfstream meet. Horses that are in a drive for 4 furlongs and still pull away from the field. On a similar type topic, Ive also been noticing that Dutrow is running more and more horses in New Jersey. Save for the NY breds, he seems to be entering less and less horses. Am I imagining this? Someone with some patience look into this....

ateamstupid 09-24-2007 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK
Didn't I read somewhere that he said his crop of 2yo's this year just really isn't as good as years past?

Easy to say after they all bomb at the Spa..

SentToStud 09-24-2007 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski
Here were the exacta prices with 1 MTP:

2-1 $4
2-3 $12
2-4 $23
2-5 $10

Let's look at it a different way... would you have taken even money on Sightseeing to beat the other 3? My personal feeling was NO WAY. You didn't have to have much handicapping insight or genius, just read and interpret what the board had. A $12 exacta doesn't sound all that great... but when it's the "most likely result" it's the same as betting a 5-1 shot to win.

Redboard disclaimer:
I played my normal win bet on the 2-3 combination and 2/3 of one on 2-4. The effective return on the race was about 7/2 for simply not liking Sightseeing. Didn't play the tri but a $65 return was more than generous.

If you didn't like Sightseeing, the tri and/or ex was definitely the way to wager. I agree.

philcski 09-24-2007 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus
I don't understand, but perhaps you mistyped: did you mean that you played your normal exacta wager (not "win bet") on the 2-3?

No, I played a normal win bet size on the exacta (so in essence, I bet Tasteyville to "win" against the other 4, and played a dutch "win" on Helsinki for 2/3 of my normal win bet), or expressed differently, 10X my normal exacta wager.

philcski 09-24-2007 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead
well ill jump on this..

a. his go to guy jv has been riding as if hes abit off ..sence his spills..

b. too many horses under his care .. micro managing 4 diffrent strings gets old
after so much success he may be letting his guys make more of the calls locally

c allday on vacation :eek: :D after some vets have gotten busted maybee the "extra attention" is lacking..

on a side note the non take down of the two at belmont was laughable...

how exactly did that horse stay up?? the inconsistency of what is taken down/left up is ridiculous. the rule is if the incident cost the other horse a placement in the judge of the stewards, the offender must be placed behind the horse they interfered with. now, I lack the "expert eye" the stewards apparently have :rolleyes: but in my honest opinion the favorite would have finished 3rd or 4th not 6th as he did.

Slewbopper 09-24-2007 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raysva
Maybe the labs have caught up with shiat and soon who knows he just might heat up when his people develope the new shiat that passes untill word gets out and atest is found for the new crap or could it be other trainers got his cocktail and table s might be evening a little all that would is 1 groom to get pissed and leave and he was in the know

I think something has been discovered and he is being scrutinized. There seems to be no other explanation for his sudden and sustained down swing. And when they do indeed catch him again, make him do his suspension during a meaningful time rather than in the dead of winter, like they did for his Saratoga suspension.

KY_Sasquash 09-24-2007 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind
First of all, I am surprised by Grasshopper losing, and at face value I guess I overrated him. Regardless of circumstances, I am surprised that Going Ballistic could beat him. But, one of the joys of the game is how surprising it can be.

However, the biggest story has to be the continuance of the Pletcher barn underperforming. Octave, not exactly one of my favorite horses, but still very much the one to beat, was a very pedestrian second in the Cotillion. As an isolated result one could easily say this is unsurprising, and perhaps it was, but considering how much many horses from that once invincible barn have been underperforming, it does at least raise questions.

Then there's Fairbanks. OK, he lost to a nice horse in Brass Hat, who received a poor ride in the Woodward where he easily could have been second, but considering the pace scenerio and his pps coming into the race I would say it is at least fair to say he also underperformed. Once again, taken in isolation, perhaps the result was far from shocking, but I don't think these results can any longer be taken in isolation.

Then there's Any Given Saturday. He won, just as he was supposed to, against a decidely sub-par group. However, he worked pretty hard to win rather unimpressively, and while maybe it is just what Pletcher wanted leading up to the BC, it hardly resembled his dominent performances in the Dwyer and Haskell. Maybe Helsinki is improving, but all things considered, one would have expected Any Given Saturday to have handled that one more easily.

Now, none of these horses ran poorly, and all at least showed up, but as a group, and in conjunction with the poor results that barn has shown in NY since the beginning of August, there has to be at least some question as to what is different from the last five years or so. After years of many horses seemingly overperforming they now seem to be consistently underperforming. Maybe it's just the law of averages catching up but after seven weeks of these kinds of results it's surprising that more people aren't at least discussing it.

I know, Lawyer Ron was great in Saratoga, as was Wait a While in her return to form in the Ballston Spa. Pletcher is to be congratulated for the terrific work he did with Lawyer Ron as he clearly has managed to turn this horse from a solid, if unspectacular, performer into perhaps the best horse in the country. I look forward to seeing if he can duplicate his sensational Saratoga form in another venue. No sane person would suggest that Todd Pletcher isn't a great trainer but for the last seven weeks his horses have been dramatically underperforming, especially in NY, and this weekend was yet another example.

Maybe we all just got used to him seeming invincible, and his extraordinary accomplishments leading up the TC races, and then leading up to the BC, were taken too lightly. Maybe some of us, myself included, should have been more impressed, and should thus be less surprised to see the recent more realistic results. I guess after all those years of dynamite results it's hard for me to not at least be confused by what's recently occuring.

One of the greatest things about this game is that it eventually humbles everyone.

Octave is a hanger and is a G1SW b/c of the weak crop that she's faced; her losing wasnt that big of a surprise especially at Philly, which is a speed biased tracked and Bear Now used that to her adavantage. Fairbanks has always been a fraud and his win in the G3 Tokyo at Santa Anita was aided by a huge speed favoring bias that day as well and outside of that effort has never really run that great of race;this was quite evident when he couldnt hold off political force in the suburban...........I think you make a valid point about AGS, he wasnt visually impressive, so you might be onto something there.


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