correct, dissing would be the fact she's lucky Risen Star got a bad ride...lol

When both as a broodmare had a top earner around 500k and nothing else isn't dissing. Her top earner did have a decent earner in Japan sired by Sunday Silence.

are you kidding me? i loved that filly. i even bet her in the derby, with my friend telling me when she was 2 there was no way she'd lose the derby!

risen star, now that was an underated horse...........if he didnt get a hack job for a ride in the derby he would have won that race.

I think Rags to Riches grueling summer of races is bringing all kinds of new fans to the sport. I can't even remember what she looks like!! (this is in relation to the post that said Cigar brought many new fans to the sport!)

On the topic of Cigar, I think he is better than he is being given credit for than most on this thread. I think KG lists way too many on his list. To me the best thing a horse can do is race a lot and win a lot. Cigar did that and most others listed don't. To me that is like saying Kevin Kouzmanoff is the best player in major league baseball, because the first pitch he saw as a big leaguer last year he hit a grand slam home run. And that just isn't true stating he is the best. But how many hall of famers hit the first pitch they saw for a grand slam?? Just because Ghostzapper could roll out 120 plus Beyers at will does not make him better than Cigar in my opinion. Just faster. HE had more grade 1 wins than Ghostzapper had starts. Going back 30 years picking up Affirmed and Bid and others...no way is he the best. But 25 years there are not too many better in my opinion. Some of the late 80s ones like Alysheba, and EG..SS perhaps, but I'm not too sure. Easy Goer and Sunday Silence did nothing as older horses.

the only way Discreet Cat or Smarty Jones would beat Cigar in a 1 1/4m race is if Discreet Cat ran the first 5 furlongs and Smarty Jones ran the last 5 furlongs

I'm too new to know for sure. But I'm wondering if I'll ever see one better than Ghostzapper.

i'd be happier if i saw horses more durable than him. but when you read about half ours retiring after his abbreviated career, you have to wonder....

hey dude, how come i cant see your avatar?

I think Smarty was a better horse than Cigar.

as much as i like smarty - maybe at 7f or a mile... but cigar had that burst of speed at the 3/8 pole that just inhaled the field when he went 9-10f.




oh, and charlie.. the avatar is clear as a bell.. a naked blonde, don't know why YOU can't see it

Based on what I think was their ability levels, not accomplishments. Had they run as many times as Cigar did, I think they would have accomplished quite a bit more than they did. I was only listing them according to what I thought each horse was capable of at his best. I thought Cigar's best attribute was his consistency, not his brilliance.

This is what makes all these comparisons difficult. How can anyone really compare two horses like say..........Ghostzapper and John Henry and determine who was "better"? One guy could point to speed figs and overall winning percentage in races and conclude that Ghostzapper was CLEARLY better. Another could look at number of G1 races won and decide that John Henry was far and away a better horse. Which one is right? It all depends. Personally I would rate John Henry higher than Ghostzapper because he accomplished a lot more. But if the two were to square off in a race on the dirt, I would pick Ghostzapper. It almost seems like this question of who is the "best" is actually two different questions merged into one.
1) Who accomplished the most?
2) Who would win if they all met in a race?

And bernardini was better than Smarty.

Bernardini folded like a tent the first time a horse looked him in the eye! Alysheba was right about Risen Star although I don't blame Eddie D for that ride, the trainer (sic) and his big-mouth owner instructed Eddie to fall back out of the number one hole despite the fact that all the speed (including Winning Colors) drew outside...he was left with more than any horse could possibly do turning for home yet rallied bravely for third...had he been used early to gain a forward stalking position, we'd have 12 Triple Crown winners now! Risen Star was a great horse, Secretariat's best and that says a lot with the inclusion of "The Iron Lady"!

i wouldn't say he folded either.
but i also wouldn't say that bernardini was better than smarty.

I thought Cigar's B/C Classic win was pretty damn brilliant...

agreed on Smarty over Bernardini. the best comment on Smarty I have ever heard was that "Smarty Jones was a freak that could run fast and far, and both at the same time..."

That being said, give me all of the past B/C Classic winners at Belmont Park for one 1 1/4 race and I'll take Cigar...

cigar over unbridled, i won't argue...but over tiznow? now that would be a race to see.

His race that day wasn't even as good as Inside Information's.

I was only kidding around. Although I do love that filly.

Nah the 'ducked Exterminator' bit actually isn't legitimate as a flaw for Man O'War based on what we now know. I highly recommend the book by Dorothy Ours for MOW info and I believe that's where I read this (I'm not at home right now and don't have the book with me to double check but I'm pretty sure about it). It's actually a misconception that's been going on for awhile. Exterminator could've been in the match race with Sir Barton and MOW but there was a caveat, he would only be in it if the race were longer (not that they liked the location either but it was mainly a distance question). Once the other two owners settled on preferred distance, it meant Exterminator would be at a disadvantage. Now if you wanted them to face each other at 1 1/2 to 2 miles we can argue the best horse (except we're not really comparing these other great horses for their ability to get 2 miles) but his owners were definitely not going to go up against MOW and Sir Barton at anything like 1 1/4 or lower. They made that decision so I'll argue that Exterminator actually ducked MOW, not the other way around. They did try to work out a three-horse race. I think they should've gone for it. Exterminator probably would've beaten a sore-hooved Sir Barton that day which ain't chump change since he was still a talented horse. Might've actually made MOW break a sweat. As it was there was really no contest.

Colin and Fair Play don't get enough attention. Talk about guts and talent. All that sparring and finally Fair Play managed to run Colin off his feet at the end, Colin still won, and got so fried it was a Pyhrric victory.

For those that answer "yes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FTWSlxQ4aE

Yeah the book did say that, just finished reading it last week myself. Great read it was too.

i believe they also didn't like the thought of weight for age, the gelding would have been giving weight to the original big red.

What do you think about all the drug use?

I found that quite disturbing, had no idea that sort of thing took place to such an extent.

Did you read Steven Crist's article in the DRF this morning of how things have differed from the card of the 1987 Travers?

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...1&subs=0&arc=0

If anyone invents a time machine, I'd like to buy a ticket for one please. :)

Hate to rain on your parade but Bute and steroids were around in 1987. If you knew what was done to horses then in lieu of Lasix, you would be a big fan of it.

I'm glad someone mentioned him in 6 pages of opinions

Submitted without comment...

All-time Breeders' Cup Classic winning Beyer Figs:

06 - Invasor - 116
05 - Saint Liam - 112
04 - Ghostzapper - 124
03 - Pleasantly Perfect - 119
02 - Volponi - 116
01 - Tiznow - 117
00 - Tiznow - 116
99 - Cat Thief - 118
98 - Awesome Again - 116
97 - Skip Away - 120
96 - Alphabet Soup - 114
95 - Cigar - 117
94 - Concern - 115
93 - Arcangues - 114
92 - A.P. Indy - 114
91 - Black Tie Affair - 120
90 - Unbridled - 116
89 - Sunday Silence (Easy Goer) - 124
88 - Alysheba - 122
87 - Ferdinand - 117
86 - Skywalker - 118
85 - Proud Truth - 120
84 - Wild Again - 113

---------------------------------------

While we're at it. Re-posted from last year:

Cigar
BC Classic - 115
JC Gold Cup - 115
Woodward - 116
Pacific Classic - 111
Arlington - 117
Mass Cap - 112
Donn - 117

BC Classic - 117
JC Gold Cup - 111
Woodward - 111
Hol Gold Cup - 118
Mass Cap - 117
Pim Special - 114
Oaklawn - 121
GP Handicap - 116
Donn - 114
Alw - 108

If that's correct, that means Princess Rooney ran a 121 Beyer for winning the Breeders Cup Distaff in '84 (by 7 lengths over Life's Magic). As her race, at the same ten furlong distance, went a full second faster than the Classic.

FWIW, Life's Magic won the '85 BC Distaff by 6 1/4 lengths over Lady's Secret. Lady's Secret won the '86 BC Distaff and the coveted title Horse of the Year.

Interesting that the 2nd place finisher of the first two BC Distaffs came back to win the following year.

It's hard to believe that Princess Rooney actually holds the record for fastest Beyer figure in BC Distaff history, and not Inside Information (who ran a 119)

Princess Rooney went 6-for-6 at age two - after an 18 length ALW win at Calder, she made her stakes debut ten days later and won by 12 lengths. From there, she shipped to Belmont and ran in a 13 horse field in the Grade 1 Frizette, which she won by 8 lengths. The 3rd place finisher, Weekend Surprise, was the dam of both Preakness winner Summer Squall and Belmont winner A. P. Indy.

She made her final start of her 2yo season in the Grade 2 Gardenia Stakes, which she won by 11 lengths. The 2nd place finisher in that race had won a Grade 1 stake in her prior start.

Princess Rooney was a Grade 1 winning filly with a perfect 6-for-6 record, winning her six races by a combined 56 lengths, for a 9.33 length average margin of victory. However, she lost champion 2yo filly honors to the deceased Landaluce, who went 5-for-5, also with a single Gr 1 win. She won her five races by a combined 46.5 lengths, for a 9.30 average margin of victory.

I wonder how close the vote was that year?