By the same token, you should be pointing out how Flip Saunders lucked into winning game 2 by planning on Maxiell scoring 15 and saving their asses in order to get to the point of needing Cleveland miss two shots at the end.

Detroit is one lucky team not to be down 3-1.

If I were coaching them the Pistons Series would have ended last night with a Cleveland sweep in front of the home crowd. They played too hard to come home down 2 - 0

Flip, the second worst coach in the NBA.

Well, that's certainly profound. Who's the worst?

Brown, the Cavs coach. Hes basically just a suit with white teeth that gives the guys water. Hes certainly no bench coach

I live in Idaho now...so no Whiteys! I simply disagree about Brown. Is he perfect...no. But after 35 years viewing, it's hard for me to be critical of a Cleveland coach who is 17-10 in postseason. So you really think the move to put Pavolvic in the starting lineup replacing Snow and putting Hughes at point guard moving them from a 5 to a 2 seed was a wrong move?? They're streaky and inconsistent because they have no point guard...Hughes can't shoot, Pavlovic is 23, Gibson is 21, Snow is old and can't shoot, Gooden is the definition of streaky, God could be coaching him and that is him, Verajao has zero offensive game, Ilgauskas is getting old, but where I think you are missing out is that despite the type of players they have, Brown has gotten them to CONSISTENTLY play defense very well for the most part despite their trend for offensive inconsistency and he has maneuvered his superstar pretty well for the most part.

Brown is certainly not a complete zero as a coach from what I have seen.

You must be thrilled to have them both in the same series.

You are kidding right?

Check out the contracts that the Cavs are on the hook for and say this again with a straight face

Brown isnt 17 and 10 in the post season LEBRON is 17 and 10. The coach isnt helping this team win at all, its all Lebron and them being athletic. If they actually plugged a coach into that team they would be REAL tough. They cannot compete with the Spurs with Brown as the coach, Pops will outcoach him every single game.

The worst move he made last night was starting the game and the second half with Hughes. Hughes fired up 3 bricks to start the second, set the tone, and they promptly lost the lead, and nearly the game because of that bonehead move.

He also failed to take the lead into the half at 10, which should have been done. The play drawn up before the half as a last possession shot was nothing short of criminal.

We obviously disagree on Brown, but lets wait and see how this series and the finals play out before you apologize and tell me I was right.

Cannon any NBA contract is out of line, I think the front office has done a great job gettng guys who complient Lebron

Didn't Lindsay Hunter's tough 3 pointer at the end of the half have something to do with the lead not being 10?? How can you consistently ignore that there really is another team playing the game. Detroit is actually playing as well. So it is Brown's fault they messed up the last possession, but he had absolutely zero to do with the 50 points they scored?? I still don't get that logic. Actually it was tremendous coaching to start Hughes...he hit his first shot and it was the catalyst to get them through the game...sort of a Willis Reed moment at the Q!!! LeBron is 17-10, Brown is 17-10, Newble is 17-10, Pollard is 10-4. I'm not going to apologize if they lose the next two by 50 points. This is still the farthest any Cav team has ever gone. It will be their first game ever played in June on Saturday.

Do you think the Wilkins coached Cavs beat this Cavs team

You mean that money spent on the Damon Jones signing wasn't well spent!!! C'mon, quit spoiling this Cavs love fest!!

I have no idea. I don't know how to compare the teams now to teams of the 90s to teams of the 80s to teams of the 70s. Defenses were different then, you had to play straight man. Doubles weren't as often. Zones were illegal. So I have no clue. Those teams could shoot however...every last one of them.

DebODeb should be Clevelands coach.


But if Thebby was Detroits coach she would just dart her.








I don't want Thebby as Detroits coach.

I met Rasheed Wallace his senior year at Simon Gratz. I was at a nearby rec center after Sonny Hill camp with my older brother. Sheed was playing by himself when we asked him to be our 3rd member of a 3 on 3. He said yes, but told us he had to do something real quick. He runs away and comes back with a bucket full of red stuff. He wet his hand, dipped it in the bucket, and proceeded to take a run at the rim. His handprint is still up at Jardel, at the very top of the backboard. We were in awe, as he was telling us his plans to go to UNC. Long story short, we played against two older gentlemen and one of their kids. My brother called a questionable foul, which the older guy didnt take well to. Next play, the old dude floors my brother and said " now thats a foul .. Rasheed beat the $hit out of dude. He charged him, tackled him, and continued to beat him in front of his crying son. He got up and said "Now thats a foul"...Needless to say, game over.. Will never forget that as long as I live.

I understand that the Bid is a Cavs fan but his assessment of almost everything in this series seems wrong.
First of all, the Cavs offense is so bogged down because they have players that whose strengths dont particularly mesh well. Hughes (though I will give him a break for playing hurt) needs movement on offense to be effective but is the only starter that wants to play that type of game. Gooden looked effective burying the baseline jumpers but he is wildly inconsistent and Detroit failed to adjust and force him deeper where he is not effective. Ilguagksas is only effective in as a post player when he gets the ball on the block or as a catch and shoot spot up player with 18 feet as the limit to his range. He can not run at all. Marshall is a soft spot up 3 point shooter who if he is off gives you almost nothing. Gibson is a good player, slasher type that shoots well. His problem is on the other end where he is simply too small to match up with Detroits guards. Snow has never been a good offensive player but he can matchup with stronger guards. But his offense is so poor and his foot speed is so slow it is a crime that they are paying him like $9million a year. (I think he is signed through next year too:eek: ) Pavolvik is a streaky shooter who can create problems with his athleticism and size but make a lot of bad plays. On d he is caught gambling alot. Verajo has pretty much no offensive strength other than offensive rebounding though he is a good, active defender who seems to get his hands on alot of balls.
One problem I have with Mike Brown is his insistence on playing Damon Jones at all. At least Snow can play effective defense and knows not to shoot. Jones is an awful player. No positives on either side of the ball.

Detroit has so much focus on Lebron that they have left Gooden almost unguarded the whole series. They seem to get discouraged by Cleveland not falling into the trap of running with them which will open the lanes up for Detroits slashers.I cant for the life of me understand how Prince isnt scoring 30 points a game. Cleveland has no answer for him on defense. It is the best match up advantage that Detroit has on Cleveland. Force the Cavs to play Lebron on him and run him from baseline to baseline. But they keep letting Lebron off the hook by not going after him on D. He is constantly resting on D and there is no way he can play big minutes and do what he needs to do on the offensive end and chase Prince all over the court too. When Gibson was on the court there was no excuse for Hamilton to not post him and make Cleveland go to a zone. Gibson was getting torched by Billips early until they changed up and had him shadow Hamilton. But Hamilton is too big for Gibson to handle . THAT was bad coaching by not continuing to abuse the rookie.

Cleveland is quicker than Detroit and they are getting to more loose balls and rebounds and that has really been the reason that this series has been so close. Webber has done almost nothing, Rasheed has been playing in spurts, Billips has been inconsistent (though no where near as bad as the announcers have made out) Hamilton has not been the focal point of the offense despite seemingly favorable matchups with Gibson and a hurting Hughes. Prince was not hitting anything the first 2 games but has been under utilized. Maxiel is a quicker, athletic front court player that matches up well with Clevelands front line guys but is a raw player on both ends. Mcdyess has been strong at times but seems to be out of the game for long stretches.

I cant understand why anyone would be upset wih Mike Brown, Lebron James or the Cleveland Cavs. They are a very limited team playing a better, more experienced team straightup. If Marshall wasn't a stiff they would be up 3-1.

Is there a worse announcer than Doug Collins? No wonder MJ hated him.

Me, you, ppdgn, Morty and Byk could complement Lebron. They have put together an unworkable team that is somehow working. They have 2 important, underpaid guys with expiring contracts (varejo and pavovic) and are going to pay Hughes and Snow a combined $24 mill next year. The salary cap implications are not good.

those guys are pretty old now

he may be in the Doc Rivers, Isiah category

I cant believe how bad that guy is!!!

Mr.Shill...I mean Shell.



You do have the cap problem correct. Fine work.


But really........shame on you for the rest.

I must just be watching a different game. Watching the Cavs come out flat in the third with three coach called plays to hughes was enough for me. Watching them get sloppy the last minute of the second quarter could have cost them the game. Having Snow on the floor taking the two biggest freethrows in the last 20 years in Cleveland is a joke. Boobie played great, if he wouldnt have put up 20+ they would have lost AGAIN. That would have been four times they out played Detroit and LOST. That cant fall on anyone but Brown. I mean Lebron carries them, he does it all, you have a superstar who wants to win. The guy doesnt care about the money, or the accolades, he just wants to be a champion. Thats the reason the series is tied.

Gotta run to Northfield Park, be back later

I believe that he was trying to get all he could from Hughes while he could. Snow made the FT he needed to make. He was on the floor for defensive purposes. You have to give Brown some credit for completely shutting Detroits 1/2 court offense down.
I understand that you are not used to being in this position but enjoy it a little. You can be bitter again when LeBron is a Knick.

With regard to Jones, he did not step onto the floor the Washington series or the first 5 games of the NJ series. In game 6 they played him with Marshall, and Gibson after they scored like 6 points in the 3rd quarter with James in foul trouble and they had a big 4th quarter with jones on the floor to blow the game out. Even though it was Marshall and Gibson and James that hit all the 3s that quarter, he did enough to get him back into the rotation for the Detroit series. The last 20 games of the regular season, and the first 9 playoff games, Jones pretty much did not step on the floor.

He didn't play for good reason....he is totally useless.

Ok then I have been reading this whole thread (skipping most of Morton's cause I cant read one post on the same screen). And out of all of this we the most astounding thing I have learned is we have 2 Cleveland fans.

God bless you poor guys. How much suffering can one sports town take? Football... dreadful last minute drives, fumbles next to the goal line and so many bad teams. Art Modell up and leaves and wins a Super Bowl.

Baseball... bad for so long, then some success and then bad. Dont watch them now but holy carbuncles so much pain.

Basketball... a history of pitiful to mediocre teams. Enter Lebron.

I'm serious if you can be a Cleveland sports fan without killing yourself you are true warriors. You cannot be defeated for you have never known victory. That sounds all out of sorts but honestly I feel bad for you guys. The true definition of profound suffering.

And one catatonic.

Its ok PP...he is one of my least favorite for sure.

damn crybaby....

If I may....what amazes me is we have many people telling us post after post what a pathetic team Cleveland is ( not counting THE CHOSEN ONE...of course) and ,to a lesser degree, Detroit....yet they are 2 of only 4 teams left playing this stupid game.






I think it's them.

I really do.

They are not pathetic. They are playing really bad basketball. Thats what I am seeing. The NBA is certainly not happy. The level of play is not Suns/Spurs.

a very unfair comparison....Bird was 23 in his rookie year. The Celtics finished that 79-80 season 61-21, which was first in the Atlantic Division. The PREVIOUS season before Bird's rookie season....29-53 and 5th in the Atlantic Division.

Don't bring age into this...Bird a much greater impact on his team his rookie year than Lebron did.

That was the 2nd biggest turnaround in NBA basketball.

Pat, I didn't even MENTION the fact they won the NBA championship in Birds 2ND season....


Don't get me wrong...I like Lebron...seems like a great young man. But people just can't compare him and Bird at this stage of their respective careers....it just isn't fair to Lebron.

Bird had already played against the best in college. He was very seasoned. Lebron is but a wee 6' 8" 240 lb. manchild. Making babies a bit early imo.

I agree.

I just find it funny that "hourseofcourse" bragged about Lebron having the Cavs at over .500 after two years with the team. Yet Bird had the Celtics winning the whole damn NBA championship in his 2nd year.


No comparison....

Everyone!




















Go To Bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However if you look at the Celts season before you will see that there were several reasons why they improved that had nothing to do with Bird. The 78-79 Celts were coached by Tom Sanders and then Dave Cowens as a player-coach, both poor coaches. The season was upended by 1/2 the roster being traded to Buffalo after 20 games. Tiny Archabald had his worst season as a pro partly because he was coming off missing a year due to a serious foot injury and also because of a fued between him and a fading Jo Jo White. The Celtics hired Bill Fitch for the next season (Birds first), got rid of most of the trouble makers like Marvin Barnes and White, moved Cowens back to the floor, signed Pistol Pete for offense off the bench, inserted Chris Ford in Whites place, utilized the thug ML Carr as a sixth man and added one of the top 5 all time great players. Cornbread was in his prime.

Bird, of course was the biggest reason, but the Celts self imposed chaos of the previous 2 seasons with coaching changes, trades, ownership upheaval made them worse than they really were. Dont forget that there were 4 Hall of Famers on the roster in Birds first year.

The Cavs on the other hand were just plain bad. 17-65 is really bad. That was with Carlos Boozer, Ilguakas, Dejuan Wagner, and Ricky Davis. They added Lebron and Jeff Mcginnis subtracted Davis and improved 18 games with Paul Silas as coach. Adding Jeff McGinnis and improving is a feat in itself.

Kev they got these 2 guys that year.....you may have heard of them.......Robert Parrish and Kevin McHale....they might have had something to do with that Championship too.....

BIRD pts fg% reb asst steals blk to
rookie 21.3 47% 10 4.5 143 53 263
year 2 21.2 47% 10.7 5.5 161 63 289
year 3 22.9 50% 10.9 5.8 143 66 254
year 4 23.6 50% 11 5.8 148 71 240

LeBron
rookie 20.9 41% 5.5 5.9 130 58 273
year 2 27.2 47% 7.4 7.2 177 52 262
year 3 31.4 48% 7.1 6.6 123 66 260
year 4 27.3 48% 7.1 7.0 125 55 250

seems like a pretty close comparison when you consider Bird was 3 years older at every stage...